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BarkingDogs bark for a reason. Sometimes, they’ve been bred to bark - sometimes, they’re simply communicating! In this episode, Libby and Emily break down barking: why dogs do it, how we can manage the behavior, and more. They break down bark collars, citronella, and how some of the ways we mitigate barking are ineffective at best and cruel at worst. You’ll walk away with practical and easy tips on how to work with dogs who present this behavior.
The book Emily references is called Barking: The Sound of the Language. |
Episode Transcript
Emily 0:09
Welcome to pod to the rescue.
Libby 0:11
Rescuing the dog is just the first step. We're here to help with everything that comes next. Hello, everyone, and welcome back to pod to the rescue. I'm Libby.
Emily 0:22
And I'm Emily.
Libby 0:24
And today we're going to talk about barking 101.
Emily 0:29
And I've been a little intimidated to do this episode, because I feel like barking is so complex and vast, and it's so common, and tackling it in one. Training Basics episode is going to be tough. So I feel like this might just be marking one on one to be followed up. As we go on. With other episodes that delve deeper into deeper specifics.
Libby 0:58
Definitely, because there are a lot of different reasons why dogs bark, which we'll get into in a little bit. But the overarching kind of thing that we want to leave our listeners with today is that dogs bark.
Emily 1:18
And you know, I was thinking about it. And you know, when you go to the zoo, you hear zoo animals vocalizing. And, you know, if you went up to the zoo keeper and said, I just don't want to hear that hippo anymore, or I don't want to hear that elephant, like making its elephant noise. People would look at you, dude, we would never do that. But dogs, they live in our homes. And we have as we always say, like this mythological like you should be here, you should be quiet, you should just be perfect little Lassie, and only bark when Tim is in the well, you know, but so many of these dogs in our lives bark for so many different reasons as we can explain later, but but they're barking for a reason. And they have been so many of them have been bred to bark. And it's also just the way dogs one of the main ways dogs communicate just like we communicate through talking.
Libby 2:16
Right? Birds sing dogs bark.
Emily 2:20
Can you imagine if like dogs were like, could shock us for talking? God sorry, that's getting dark there. But you know, like, like, it's it's just one of those things and they're, they're in our houses, most of the time are locked in our yards. If they could go out and wander for miles like it was, you know, 50 years ago, they probably wouldn't be barking as much as they are. So I think that we just have to like reframe, barking. And full disclosure, barking is tough for me because I have a parent ease. And she came to me, for one reason that her people gave her up was that she barked a lot. They put a bark collar on her a shock collar. And then she just started digging up their beautiful yard. And so it's like, she was barking because she was bored. And she was bred for the last few 1000 years to alert to noises. And and then then when she started getting shocked for barking, she decided to start taking up digging is another natural behavior. Oh,
Libby 3:35
yeah. And that brings up this the situation we often get ourselves into when we start correcting behavior without thinking about the root cause. And sometimes the root cause is that 1000s of years of breeding. Sometimes we close off one channel for an expression of natural behavior, and the behavior pops up somewhere else. And we don't like that either.
Emily 4:01
Right? Yeah. And with punishment, the fallout is usually something less enjoyable than just barking. So like, yeah, it does seem like behavior just like leaks out somewhere. And it's, it's not something we necessarily are going to enjoy. Like these people were like, well, they had like a beautiful garden with like landscaping. They were like she's gotta go.
Libby 4:28
Yeah. So real quick, let's just address why we wouldn't recommend using a bark collar, whether it uses shock or citronella.
Emily 4:39
Yeah, I think just going back to that AVS AVS statement about you know, when you suppress or punish a behavior, there's this high risk of fallout of, you know, aggression, anxiety, like we're not teaching the dog, what we want them to do. We're just suppressing a behavior with them. punishment. And, oh, this could go, this could go on for a while, but like they could be making really bad associations, like I'm extremely lucky that my parent is does not have aggression. Because, you know, those chances were pretty darn high to shock up here and ease. Yeah, I would never do it. Again, even citronella I mean, their, their nose is so much stronger and more powerful than ours. So to spray her with something that just like bombards her nasal passage seems so just a bad idea. I mean, you know, aggressive punishing, I just couldn't do it. Right. So, yeah,
Libby 5:44
so yeah, all of these a lot of common tips that you hear from, oh, your neighbor or your cousins, in laws, or someone on the internet about using a bark collar or shaking a can of pennies, or using a spray bottle or something that might make your dog stop barking, because the experience is so aversive. But there are risks of Fallout. And also, they might start exhibiting other behaviors like Piper digging in the beautiful landscaping, because they need an outlet for their natural dog instincts.
Emily 6:30
So true. I have a friend who had an Anatolian Shepherd this was like 12 years ago before I even knew anything, or better. And she hired a trainer to come and deal with his barking. And the trainer said, just have your hose ready. And when he barks, spray him with the hose. And this was the sweetest dog he had. We pet to him a lot. He was around my son and all my son's friends. Well, fast forward four months, he started biting people who came into the yard, he bet multiple people and he was a dog. So, you know, I bet she kind of wished she hadn't sprayed him.
Libby 7:06
Right. So there's a little cautionary tale there. Yeah. So okay, we've gotten that out of the way what not to do. But that's not very helpful if your dog is barking nonstop, and you for whatever reason. Don't want them barking so much,
Emily 7:26
right? Because I've got to say I personally wish my dog barked less. So this is my own personal challenge. I'm trying to move out of suburbia is actually what I'm trying to do. But she also she also has very limited access to stimuli that would make her bark. But I guess let's back up a little bit and talk about like, trying to identify in your dog. If you're listening right now and you're like my dog is barking. I would try to figure out why are they barking because one of the complicated things about barking is there's like multiple categories of barking.
Libby 8:04
Yeah, just like we can use our voices and speak to express any number of emotions or to communicate, you know, anything that's going on. Dogs bark about all sorts of different things.
Emily 8:21
Yeah. And so trying to figure out like, are they fearful? Are they frustrated? So there's a really great book that I would recommend anyone who has a barking dog gets called barking the sound of a language by Turid Ruth us she's a Swedish behaviorist who's amazing. And she breaks down barking into six categories. Excitement barking, warning, barking, guarding, barking, fear, barking, frustration barking, and learned barking which is more like I would say like demand barking barking that has that we in some way inadvertently reinforce which is those six categories makes me immediately be like this is this could be like a five hour episode. Or we just need to like keep delving into barking as we as we go on with this pike podcast.
Libby 9:25
Yeah, so I think that will probably just give some of our top tips for the most common types of barking especially, you know, the types of complaints that we see in rescue dogs or dogs who are being you know, returned to rescue or who are being re homed?
Emily 9:50
Yeah, I think that's a great way to approach it. You know, I think I see a lot of dogs who you know, hear things like let's say you You just brought your dog home. And there's new noises or new sounds outside. So alert barking, you know, which would be kind of that warning barking. And you're like, What is that sound Bark, bark, bark, bark, bark. Visual is a biggie, you know. So if you have a dog, and they can see out the window, and there's things passing in front of that window. I'd say that's a hugely common one. Yeah, where like, you know, dogs, these dogs, kids skateboards. And that one, I just go straight for a visual blocker. Do you have film on your Windows or you don't because you're in the country,
Libby 10:40
I don't, because nobody walks by, which is really fabulous. So DAISY can see, she can stand on our bed and look out the window. And see prairie dogs and social sometimes bark at Prairie dogs. But that's usually not a big deal, you know. But we often recommend window film, which is just a removable product that you can stick on the inside of your windows, and it lets the light in but it makes everything on the other side of the window all fuzzy. Or they sometimes you can find them with like a faux stained glass kind of pattern, which is kind of pretty. And so it's an easy way and nonpermanent way to just eliminate the visual trigger if your dog is alert barking at everything, every person who walks by on the sidewalk outside your house. It's a man sure it's a management tool. But you you're really just eliminating the problem.
Emily 11:50
It's really handy. I have window film, on all my windows that face the street. Otherwise Piper would be barking and everyone who goes past which is no fun. And then the other thing is like if it's an noise issue, white, like if they're hearing jingling of tags or barking at the sound of scooters, if you're in suburbia or urban area or even you know if you're an apartment complex and the people next to you have kids like stomping around, that makes your dog alert bark, I would say white noise is a really great thing to diminish the noise.
Libby 12:32
And this is a tip that we both learned from Kim Brophy. So oftentimes people will use a white noise machine. But that has varying levels of effectiveness. And if a white noise machine isn't working, try getting instead a box fan, like just the cheap ones you can get from any wholesale store and pointing the fan towards the wall towards the source of the noise. And then the sound waves the fan helps break up the sound waves it buffers them. And an actually reduces the noise rather than just covers it up.
Emily 13:10
And how we respond to the barking is also a big tip. Because full disclosure, I'm sure 10 years ago, I would be like no stop barking. So we're becoming aroused, and emotional about whatever it is out there, according to the dog. So another tip from Kim Brophy is just be like, hey, it's the neighbors. So you're naming whatever the stimuli is, hey, it's just an ambulance. And then I would personally always try to pair that stimuli with something good. So here we go. It's just the mailman. Here's some, you know, roast beef.
Libby 13:54
Right? Yeah. So on that note, you know, some alerts barking to something like the UPS man coming to your door. Now, I'm I don't know about you, but I want Daisy to bark. I want my dog to bark if there's someone creeping around the house. And so I don't mind that at all. But I do exactly what you're saying. I say, oh, it's the UPS man. It's okay. He's here to deliver a package. And she learns that I'm not concerned about it, so she doesn't have to be concerned about it either. And again, like you said, Well, you can pair that with. Let's go into the kitchen. Let's grab a small handful of kibble. Let's toss it on the ground, a little treat, scatter. And then if you keep this up really predictably, before too long, your dog will bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, and then come find you. Like, hey, it's time for my treat scatter, which is a great way to handle this kind of alert barking.
Emily 14:58
I think so too. too. And so many of these barking behaviors come from an emotion. So, you know, I know people will be like, well, aren't you like rewarding the barking, but it is changing an emotional association of you of pairing it with the food. Like four or five years ago, I had a long term foster dog who was semi feral and he used to bark at the neighbor. When he came out on his deck, and the neighbor, the deck was higher. So all of a sudden, you would just see this man's head poking up above the fence. And this poor feral sweet as can be but fearful foster dog would just be like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, it was like really high pitched and alarming to me and all the neighbors, you know, nobody loved him. And he had to be out there sometimes, you know, to go potty and be outside. So I always had my treats ready to go. And I would just go and be like, it's just the neighbor. And then it would throw food and he would start searching for the food. And it took months, but we really by like, 80% diminish the barking at the floating head on the other side of the fence.
Libby 16:18
Yeah, because he learned that the head predicted good things in food. Not bad things as in danger.
Emily 16:27
Yeah, yelling or spraying, you know? And I know, my neighbor was like, why don't you get a shock collar for him, you know, so that he stops barking and I was like, so here's what's gonna have to happen. Really appreciate your patience. Yeah, you know, he was really great about it. Yeah, but it worked. And it he gained confidence. There's also I'm not a neuroscientist, but when a dog is searching for food, they're in their like prefrontal cortex and thinking, and when they're fear barking, they're in their amygdala. So like cortisol, adrenaline, they're all so if you can get them to redirect to searching for food, they're going into like a calming learning part of their brain. Right?
Libby 17:13
Right. Well, we've talked about this before, that sniffing releases all of those feel good hormones. So doing a tree scatter like that in the backyard is a great way for your dog to kind of just bring it down a notch. Whether it's from fear, arousal, excitement, whatever,
Emily 17:34
whatever. Yeah. Never underestimate the power of a treat scatter.
Libby 17:41
So what are some other categories of barking that we can give some quick tips on him?
Emily 17:46
I would say you know, for herding dogs. Seems like so many dogs in rescue right now. are herding dogs
Libby 17:54
started. Yeah.
Emily 17:55
Like German Shepherds, Border Collies, cattle dogs. All these. Those dogs were bred to be vocal.
Libby 18:03
Oh, yeah. So for Daisy, her she has several categories of barking. One of which is what would you call like a hurting bark? I don't even know. Excitement?
Emily 18:19
Yes. Just. Is it excitement? Like when she sees bikes? Is that what it is?
Libby 18:25
Yeah. Or like sometimes if she tries to hurt us in the house. So it's just a communication of, hey, something's happening. And I want to control it. So, you know, breed really matters. And we're talking about this.
Emily 18:42
I think we should talk about breed because I do think breeds are so much of this, like so baked in. Yeah. So I feel like with herding dogs barking just like with the livestock Guardians is baked in, you know, it's like comes out of the box with this. Bark. Yeah. And, you know, I feel like, nowadays, there's just so many of those dogs and rescue and shelters. Because they're coming. A lot of these dogs are coming from rural areas. And this is totally like not scientifically researched. But if you think about it, like urban people are spaying and neutering way more than the rural areas when you think well, yeah,
Libby 19:29
just listen to our episode with Meredith Perry, and we go into this in detail about why we have so many dogs coming from rural areas, you know, and I have a theory about DAISY, which is she's most likely from working line, cattle dogs, and that's a whole other ballgame. From quote unquote show line, where they're more bred to be family type dogs. So, yeah, breed really matters. And speaking of breeds, you know your scent hounds like eagles, and basset hounds. I mean, they're literally Yeah, they are bred to just Bay and Bay and Bay, in response to certain stimuli, it's just baked into their DNA, which isn't to say that all of them will have this trait. You know, of course, there are failed hunting dogs. And it's not to say that you can't teach one of these dog breed a dog of one of these breeds to make different choices. But you have to expect it and accept it. If you get a dog of certain breeds. That barking might be an issue and it might be something that you have to work a little bit harder on, if you have one of these breeds that's known for barking.
Emily 21:04
Amen, sister.
Libby 21:08
So we've covered kind of some of the more high energy tight breeds. But you know, something else we see a lot is small dogs who bark all the time. One of the reasons for that is that as we bred dogs to be, you know, like Toy types breeds to be smaller and smaller. Along with that came some characteristics of a nervous system, like neophobia fear of new things. And just some general anxiety. Temple Grandin has research on the relationship between lower bone density and higher levels of anxiety. Plus, there's just a lot for a smaller dog to be afraid of. I mean, imagine if you were walking around the world at 12 inches high and everything was a giant in your world. It's just a little more scary, right?
Emily 22:03
Yes, small dog. You know, people say oh, so up, but really, there's a lot for them to be afraid of. Totally. All right.
Libby 22:12
So how do we assess what the dog is trying to communicate with their barking Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. We look at their body language. Which we say this comes up every single episode, it look at your dog's body language to help figure out their emotional state, right? Mmm hmm.
Emily 22:35
I would say that that would be where I would start. And then, you know, also looking at what is happening in the environment. And then also, in the Turid Rudolph's book, she describes different sounds that the bark has like staccato, or high pitched. And that can also help us understand, you know, the pattern of the bark. And what is happening in the environment. So if you know a dog is going past the window, and its bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark. It could be frustration barking, it could be anxiety barking. So body language also into looking at that body language circling back to like, Is the dog really aroused? Do they have their hackles up? Are they leaning forward? Are they leaning backward? Or is their face Stressed? Or do they seem like excited, like, I want to get that out, I want to meet that dog. I'm excited. Really, really loose flappy body language.
Libby 23:38
How you deal with it all comes down to the reason why the behavior is happening. In my opinion.
Emily 23:45
A lot of times a dog barking out the window and a dog going past your person going past it could be frustration barking, like, I think that Piper's barking is somewhere between, you know, guarding because she's a guard dog, you know, livestock guardian. But I think it's also frustration barking, like, look at all this exciting stuff going on outside my house, and I am stuck in this house. And I can't go say hi. Yeah, because she's very social. So you have to look at the situation. If you have a fearful dog, who's not prosocial. Chances are it's fear barking or warning barking. But if you have a very social dog, it could be like, Oh, she's frustrated because she can't get there. Yeah, get to that thing, right? It's very frustrating.
Libby 24:33
And if your dog is barking from excitement, you could make it worse by doing something like a tree scattered. So it's important to know that kind of thing. You know if your dog is barking because there's so so excited about you know, a person coming into the house and then you make it an even bigger deal by adding all of this good stuff. You're increasing their arousal, you're not helping them Come down and process. So, you know, this treat scatter is a great tool when it comes to something like fear or alert or warning, or guarding. Especially because you're also teaching them the the behavior of moving, say, away from the door and to another spot. But this is why it's important to read your dog, look at their body language and look at the whole picture of what's happening.
Emily 25:34
And one thing we always say in training is like, what would you want your dog to do instead? So, you know, go back and listen to her door greeting if you're if you have a Barker at the door. But my lab Sadie was one of my best dogs ever. She had excitement, slash anxiety barking when people came in the house, it was just too overwhelming for her. So we taught her to get her ball in her mouth, because she loved her ball. And then we would usually, like, go out and play a little ball with her or play a little, you know, so we actually probably amped up her arousal at the door by doing that, but it did work because the barking was just a lot.
Libby 26:16
And so we can't Yeah, you can't bark with a ball in your mouth.
Emily 26:19
can't bark with the ball in your mouth. Yep. So yeah.
Libby 26:23
Yeah. So Daisy has this mixture between excitement and learn the barking that she does every time she goes outside. Because when we first moved into this house, she saw a squirrel out in the backyard, I didn't really realize how aroused she was. And I opened the door and she chased the squirrel. And then she started jumping up trying to catch it in this huge tall tree, like she was never gonna get the squirrel but she started jumping like four feet in the air. And I was like, oh my god, it's so cute. Let me take a video. And she that was so reinforcing to her to know that I thought she was doing something adorable. that to this day, that behavior is ingrained of going to the back door bursting out barking and going to that same tree whether or not there's a squirrel in it. So what we do instead now is we read her body language before we let her go out. And if she's supe amped up, she doesn't get to go out, right at that moment. You know, if she's jumping, spinning, whining, we just take a few steps back until she can kind of get a grip.
Emily 27:45
Get a grip. Yep. You know, one thing we didn't put in there was, you know, a dragline you know, like Piper now sometimes if it's early in the morning, or you know, five o'clock at night and people are having their dinner, I just put her out there with a five foot lead. And I keep an eye on her. You know, don't just leave it up there where she could get into trouble. And then when she's barking, I'll be like, okay, girlfriend. Come on in, you know, so yours. And she's not punished. It's not like you're in trouble. But it's like, that's not going to work for me. Yeah, it can't be barking disturbing people.
Libby 28:23
Yeah, I think that if you have a dog who is barking a lot in the backyard, a cue like leave it or okay. All done. Something like that is really helpful to get them you know, just off of whatever they're fixated on.
Emily 28:43
And then why, you know, for for a backyard Barker, like are all their needs being met. I look at that all the time with Piper like for her when I got her at a year and a half of her emotional and enrichment needs were not being met. And honestly, to this day, I'm always constantly trying to think of like, am I meeting all her needs because this barking in the yard is not going away? Like I'm working on it working on it. It's been a year and a half. You know, but she'll hear something for houses down and because she's apparently is Jill bark sometimes. So we're doing more walks more sniffing I recently got her her off leash tag, and we've been doing some and she's just loving that. So you know, just trying to add more enrichment to her life that would mimic the normal life that parents should have. Because no one ever bred a parent needs to be an effect yard right?
Libby 29:45
Yeah, and that's this is such an important point, Emily, especially when it comes to frustration barking or demand barking, you know, are all of this dog's needs being met? And if not, that's the first place to look,
Emily 30:01
and it's hard to like meet the needs of a young dog.
Libby 30:04
Oh, yeah.
Emily 30:05
Oh, yeah.
Libby 30:07
Yeah, get it. We get it lesson you're struggling with that you understand.
Emily 30:14
And then demand barking, I think is a big side effect of positive reinforcement training if we don't really understand what we're doing with those treats. I've seen that multiple times, even just in short sessions in someone's house, where a dog will just totally stand. Look, you look straight at you and start barking for the traits. Have you had that? Yes, yeah. Yeah. And that's a good one where, you know, like, I feel like, you know, all of this, like, you would not want to do a treat scatter. If your dog is staring straight at you, you've got your treat pouch on or you're standing in front of the treat jar and they bark right at you. Walk away, right? That behavior makes me not only not feed you, it makes me walk away. Right?
Libby 31:07
Yeah. And like I was like, talking about with Daisy, you have to be careful about what you reinforce. Because sometimes all it takes is one time. Right? Right. Yeah. So what what do you do? If you have a dog who is doing something like that? Could you cue an alternate behavior? Like go get your ball or touch? Or would you ignore until the behavior is extinguished?
Emily 31:32
I wouldn't go back to that, like, WTF What's the function and I'm, I've I've met some horrific demand Barkers in my life. So I really do think like, getting up walking out of the room going in the bathroom, closing the door, just like, because I'm not going to name any names. But we have an SDR dog who was adopted out, adore her adore her mom. But whenever somebody comes over, this really smart little dog learned that my mom's busy and wants to interact with this person. If I bark, I will be fat. So we have had, we've loved this person. We've had like multiple trainers go over there for like a little snacks and wine kind of thing. And we all know do not reinforce the demand barking. But at this point is so extreme and learned. The learning history on that demand marking is so intense that like, we end up being like to see anybody have a bone we can give it like pierces through your skull. I feel like demand marking with a smart dog can become weaponized.
Libby 32:44
Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Emily 32:47
So I think just trying not to do anything where it's like, I bark, and then they give me some attention. You know, like redirecting to a hand target or down and then feeding that a smart dog can just work you and then you when you have friends over, you have to just be like, can you do hand targeting with my dog for the next hour? bark at you? So yeah, ignore be like, Why is my dog bark me wants attention. Okay, I'm gonna get up and walk away. Right? And then they can know. Yeah, maybe they need something and come back out and work with them and enrich their lives, but not.
Libby 33:27
Yeah, in that moment. It's so hard. It's so hard. But you can't reinforce behavior you don't want because by definition, that behavior will increase.
Emily 33:38
All right, so this was just a kind of a brief barking overview, I would highly recommend the book barking the sound of a language like $9 on Amazon, or at your local bookstore.
Libby 33:55
Awesome. Yeah. And, you know, like we said, there's so much to talk about here. So um, this will come up again and again and again. But hopefully, this gives you a little bit better of an understanding of why your dog might be barking in a given situation and some tips to deal with.
Emily 34:16
And if you're struggling with barking, feel free to message us on social media or send us an email, because we can refer you to a really great trainers who do virtual consults who could help you break down why your dog is barking? Or maybe we can do a listener question on barking in a few months. So if people want to give us like specifics, really specific of like, maybe sending some videos to because the sound and the body language would probably be super helpful to look at. Yeah, that maybe we could do something like that down the road.
Libby 34:54
Right on. Well, thank you all listeners, as always for listening If this episode was helpful to you, please like share subscribe review, and we will see you next time. Thanks for tuning in. If you liked this episode, don't forget to rate and review. It helps other folks like you find the show. To find out more about our programming and adoptable rescue dogs, you can visit summit dog rescue.org thanks to Mike pesci for the original music and to Alex Lee Ammons and for the love media for graphics production and editing. See you soon on pod to the rescue.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Welcome to pod to the rescue.
Libby 0:11
Rescuing the dog is just the first step. We're here to help with everything that comes next. Hello, everyone, and welcome back to pod to the rescue. I'm Libby.
Emily 0:22
And I'm Emily.
Libby 0:24
And today we're going to talk about barking 101.
Emily 0:29
And I've been a little intimidated to do this episode, because I feel like barking is so complex and vast, and it's so common, and tackling it in one. Training Basics episode is going to be tough. So I feel like this might just be marking one on one to be followed up. As we go on. With other episodes that delve deeper into deeper specifics.
Libby 0:58
Definitely, because there are a lot of different reasons why dogs bark, which we'll get into in a little bit. But the overarching kind of thing that we want to leave our listeners with today is that dogs bark.
Emily 1:18
And you know, I was thinking about it. And you know, when you go to the zoo, you hear zoo animals vocalizing. And, you know, if you went up to the zoo keeper and said, I just don't want to hear that hippo anymore, or I don't want to hear that elephant, like making its elephant noise. People would look at you, dude, we would never do that. But dogs, they live in our homes. And we have as we always say, like this mythological like you should be here, you should be quiet, you should just be perfect little Lassie, and only bark when Tim is in the well, you know, but so many of these dogs in our lives bark for so many different reasons as we can explain later, but but they're barking for a reason. And they have been so many of them have been bred to bark. And it's also just the way dogs one of the main ways dogs communicate just like we communicate through talking.
Libby 2:16
Right? Birds sing dogs bark.
Emily 2:20
Can you imagine if like dogs were like, could shock us for talking? God sorry, that's getting dark there. But you know, like, like, it's it's just one of those things and they're, they're in our houses, most of the time are locked in our yards. If they could go out and wander for miles like it was, you know, 50 years ago, they probably wouldn't be barking as much as they are. So I think that we just have to like reframe, barking. And full disclosure, barking is tough for me because I have a parent ease. And she came to me, for one reason that her people gave her up was that she barked a lot. They put a bark collar on her a shock collar. And then she just started digging up their beautiful yard. And so it's like, she was barking because she was bored. And she was bred for the last few 1000 years to alert to noises. And and then then when she started getting shocked for barking, she decided to start taking up digging is another natural behavior. Oh,
Libby 3:35
yeah. And that brings up this the situation we often get ourselves into when we start correcting behavior without thinking about the root cause. And sometimes the root cause is that 1000s of years of breeding. Sometimes we close off one channel for an expression of natural behavior, and the behavior pops up somewhere else. And we don't like that either.
Emily 4:01
Right? Yeah. And with punishment, the fallout is usually something less enjoyable than just barking. So like, yeah, it does seem like behavior just like leaks out somewhere. And it's, it's not something we necessarily are going to enjoy. Like these people were like, well, they had like a beautiful garden with like landscaping. They were like she's gotta go.
Libby 4:28
Yeah. So real quick, let's just address why we wouldn't recommend using a bark collar, whether it uses shock or citronella.
Emily 4:39
Yeah, I think just going back to that AVS AVS statement about you know, when you suppress or punish a behavior, there's this high risk of fallout of, you know, aggression, anxiety, like we're not teaching the dog, what we want them to do. We're just suppressing a behavior with them. punishment. And, oh, this could go, this could go on for a while, but like they could be making really bad associations, like I'm extremely lucky that my parent is does not have aggression. Because, you know, those chances were pretty darn high to shock up here and ease. Yeah, I would never do it. Again, even citronella I mean, their, their nose is so much stronger and more powerful than ours. So to spray her with something that just like bombards her nasal passage seems so just a bad idea. I mean, you know, aggressive punishing, I just couldn't do it. Right. So, yeah,
Libby 5:44
so yeah, all of these a lot of common tips that you hear from, oh, your neighbor or your cousins, in laws, or someone on the internet about using a bark collar or shaking a can of pennies, or using a spray bottle or something that might make your dog stop barking, because the experience is so aversive. But there are risks of Fallout. And also, they might start exhibiting other behaviors like Piper digging in the beautiful landscaping, because they need an outlet for their natural dog instincts.
Emily 6:30
So true. I have a friend who had an Anatolian Shepherd this was like 12 years ago before I even knew anything, or better. And she hired a trainer to come and deal with his barking. And the trainer said, just have your hose ready. And when he barks, spray him with the hose. And this was the sweetest dog he had. We pet to him a lot. He was around my son and all my son's friends. Well, fast forward four months, he started biting people who came into the yard, he bet multiple people and he was a dog. So, you know, I bet she kind of wished she hadn't sprayed him.
Libby 7:06
Right. So there's a little cautionary tale there. Yeah. So okay, we've gotten that out of the way what not to do. But that's not very helpful if your dog is barking nonstop, and you for whatever reason. Don't want them barking so much,
Emily 7:26
right? Because I've got to say I personally wish my dog barked less. So this is my own personal challenge. I'm trying to move out of suburbia is actually what I'm trying to do. But she also she also has very limited access to stimuli that would make her bark. But I guess let's back up a little bit and talk about like, trying to identify in your dog. If you're listening right now and you're like my dog is barking. I would try to figure out why are they barking because one of the complicated things about barking is there's like multiple categories of barking.
Libby 8:04
Yeah, just like we can use our voices and speak to express any number of emotions or to communicate, you know, anything that's going on. Dogs bark about all sorts of different things.
Emily 8:21
Yeah. And so trying to figure out like, are they fearful? Are they frustrated? So there's a really great book that I would recommend anyone who has a barking dog gets called barking the sound of a language by Turid Ruth us she's a Swedish behaviorist who's amazing. And she breaks down barking into six categories. Excitement barking, warning, barking, guarding, barking, fear, barking, frustration barking, and learned barking which is more like I would say like demand barking barking that has that we in some way inadvertently reinforce which is those six categories makes me immediately be like this is this could be like a five hour episode. Or we just need to like keep delving into barking as we as we go on with this pike podcast.
Libby 9:25
Yeah, so I think that will probably just give some of our top tips for the most common types of barking especially, you know, the types of complaints that we see in rescue dogs or dogs who are being you know, returned to rescue or who are being re homed?
Emily 9:50
Yeah, I think that's a great way to approach it. You know, I think I see a lot of dogs who you know, hear things like let's say you You just brought your dog home. And there's new noises or new sounds outside. So alert barking, you know, which would be kind of that warning barking. And you're like, What is that sound Bark, bark, bark, bark, bark. Visual is a biggie, you know. So if you have a dog, and they can see out the window, and there's things passing in front of that window. I'd say that's a hugely common one. Yeah, where like, you know, dogs, these dogs, kids skateboards. And that one, I just go straight for a visual blocker. Do you have film on your Windows or you don't because you're in the country,
Libby 10:40
I don't, because nobody walks by, which is really fabulous. So DAISY can see, she can stand on our bed and look out the window. And see prairie dogs and social sometimes bark at Prairie dogs. But that's usually not a big deal, you know. But we often recommend window film, which is just a removable product that you can stick on the inside of your windows, and it lets the light in but it makes everything on the other side of the window all fuzzy. Or they sometimes you can find them with like a faux stained glass kind of pattern, which is kind of pretty. And so it's an easy way and nonpermanent way to just eliminate the visual trigger if your dog is alert barking at everything, every person who walks by on the sidewalk outside your house. It's a man sure it's a management tool. But you you're really just eliminating the problem.
Emily 11:50
It's really handy. I have window film, on all my windows that face the street. Otherwise Piper would be barking and everyone who goes past which is no fun. And then the other thing is like if it's an noise issue, white, like if they're hearing jingling of tags or barking at the sound of scooters, if you're in suburbia or urban area or even you know if you're an apartment complex and the people next to you have kids like stomping around, that makes your dog alert bark, I would say white noise is a really great thing to diminish the noise.
Libby 12:32
And this is a tip that we both learned from Kim Brophy. So oftentimes people will use a white noise machine. But that has varying levels of effectiveness. And if a white noise machine isn't working, try getting instead a box fan, like just the cheap ones you can get from any wholesale store and pointing the fan towards the wall towards the source of the noise. And then the sound waves the fan helps break up the sound waves it buffers them. And an actually reduces the noise rather than just covers it up.
Emily 13:10
And how we respond to the barking is also a big tip. Because full disclosure, I'm sure 10 years ago, I would be like no stop barking. So we're becoming aroused, and emotional about whatever it is out there, according to the dog. So another tip from Kim Brophy is just be like, hey, it's the neighbors. So you're naming whatever the stimuli is, hey, it's just an ambulance. And then I would personally always try to pair that stimuli with something good. So here we go. It's just the mailman. Here's some, you know, roast beef.
Libby 13:54
Right? Yeah. So on that note, you know, some alerts barking to something like the UPS man coming to your door. Now, I'm I don't know about you, but I want Daisy to bark. I want my dog to bark if there's someone creeping around the house. And so I don't mind that at all. But I do exactly what you're saying. I say, oh, it's the UPS man. It's okay. He's here to deliver a package. And she learns that I'm not concerned about it, so she doesn't have to be concerned about it either. And again, like you said, Well, you can pair that with. Let's go into the kitchen. Let's grab a small handful of kibble. Let's toss it on the ground, a little treat, scatter. And then if you keep this up really predictably, before too long, your dog will bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, and then come find you. Like, hey, it's time for my treat scatter, which is a great way to handle this kind of alert barking.
Emily 14:58
I think so too. too. And so many of these barking behaviors come from an emotion. So, you know, I know people will be like, well, aren't you like rewarding the barking, but it is changing an emotional association of you of pairing it with the food. Like four or five years ago, I had a long term foster dog who was semi feral and he used to bark at the neighbor. When he came out on his deck, and the neighbor, the deck was higher. So all of a sudden, you would just see this man's head poking up above the fence. And this poor feral sweet as can be but fearful foster dog would just be like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, it was like really high pitched and alarming to me and all the neighbors, you know, nobody loved him. And he had to be out there sometimes, you know, to go potty and be outside. So I always had my treats ready to go. And I would just go and be like, it's just the neighbor. And then it would throw food and he would start searching for the food. And it took months, but we really by like, 80% diminish the barking at the floating head on the other side of the fence.
Libby 16:18
Yeah, because he learned that the head predicted good things in food. Not bad things as in danger.
Emily 16:27
Yeah, yelling or spraying, you know? And I know, my neighbor was like, why don't you get a shock collar for him, you know, so that he stops barking and I was like, so here's what's gonna have to happen. Really appreciate your patience. Yeah, you know, he was really great about it. Yeah, but it worked. And it he gained confidence. There's also I'm not a neuroscientist, but when a dog is searching for food, they're in their like prefrontal cortex and thinking, and when they're fear barking, they're in their amygdala. So like cortisol, adrenaline, they're all so if you can get them to redirect to searching for food, they're going into like a calming learning part of their brain. Right?
Libby 17:13
Right. Well, we've talked about this before, that sniffing releases all of those feel good hormones. So doing a tree scatter like that in the backyard is a great way for your dog to kind of just bring it down a notch. Whether it's from fear, arousal, excitement, whatever,
Emily 17:34
whatever. Yeah. Never underestimate the power of a treat scatter.
Libby 17:41
So what are some other categories of barking that we can give some quick tips on him?
Emily 17:46
I would say you know, for herding dogs. Seems like so many dogs in rescue right now. are herding dogs
Libby 17:54
started. Yeah.
Emily 17:55
Like German Shepherds, Border Collies, cattle dogs. All these. Those dogs were bred to be vocal.
Libby 18:03
Oh, yeah. So for Daisy, her she has several categories of barking. One of which is what would you call like a hurting bark? I don't even know. Excitement?
Emily 18:19
Yes. Just. Is it excitement? Like when she sees bikes? Is that what it is?
Libby 18:25
Yeah. Or like sometimes if she tries to hurt us in the house. So it's just a communication of, hey, something's happening. And I want to control it. So, you know, breed really matters. And we're talking about this.
Emily 18:42
I think we should talk about breed because I do think breeds are so much of this, like so baked in. Yeah. So I feel like with herding dogs barking just like with the livestock Guardians is baked in, you know, it's like comes out of the box with this. Bark. Yeah. And, you know, I feel like, nowadays, there's just so many of those dogs and rescue and shelters. Because they're coming. A lot of these dogs are coming from rural areas. And this is totally like not scientifically researched. But if you think about it, like urban people are spaying and neutering way more than the rural areas when you think well, yeah,
Libby 19:29
just listen to our episode with Meredith Perry, and we go into this in detail about why we have so many dogs coming from rural areas, you know, and I have a theory about DAISY, which is she's most likely from working line, cattle dogs, and that's a whole other ballgame. From quote unquote show line, where they're more bred to be family type dogs. So, yeah, breed really matters. And speaking of breeds, you know your scent hounds like eagles, and basset hounds. I mean, they're literally Yeah, they are bred to just Bay and Bay and Bay, in response to certain stimuli, it's just baked into their DNA, which isn't to say that all of them will have this trait. You know, of course, there are failed hunting dogs. And it's not to say that you can't teach one of these dog breed a dog of one of these breeds to make different choices. But you have to expect it and accept it. If you get a dog of certain breeds. That barking might be an issue and it might be something that you have to work a little bit harder on, if you have one of these breeds that's known for barking.
Emily 21:04
Amen, sister.
Libby 21:08
So we've covered kind of some of the more high energy tight breeds. But you know, something else we see a lot is small dogs who bark all the time. One of the reasons for that is that as we bred dogs to be, you know, like Toy types breeds to be smaller and smaller. Along with that came some characteristics of a nervous system, like neophobia fear of new things. And just some general anxiety. Temple Grandin has research on the relationship between lower bone density and higher levels of anxiety. Plus, there's just a lot for a smaller dog to be afraid of. I mean, imagine if you were walking around the world at 12 inches high and everything was a giant in your world. It's just a little more scary, right?
Emily 22:03
Yes, small dog. You know, people say oh, so up, but really, there's a lot for them to be afraid of. Totally. All right.
Libby 22:12
So how do we assess what the dog is trying to communicate with their barking Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. We look at their body language. Which we say this comes up every single episode, it look at your dog's body language to help figure out their emotional state, right? Mmm hmm.
Emily 22:35
I would say that that would be where I would start. And then, you know, also looking at what is happening in the environment. And then also, in the Turid Rudolph's book, she describes different sounds that the bark has like staccato, or high pitched. And that can also help us understand, you know, the pattern of the bark. And what is happening in the environment. So if you know a dog is going past the window, and its bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark. It could be frustration barking, it could be anxiety barking. So body language also into looking at that body language circling back to like, Is the dog really aroused? Do they have their hackles up? Are they leaning forward? Are they leaning backward? Or is their face Stressed? Or do they seem like excited, like, I want to get that out, I want to meet that dog. I'm excited. Really, really loose flappy body language.
Libby 23:38
How you deal with it all comes down to the reason why the behavior is happening. In my opinion.
Emily 23:45
A lot of times a dog barking out the window and a dog going past your person going past it could be frustration barking, like, I think that Piper's barking is somewhere between, you know, guarding because she's a guard dog, you know, livestock guardian. But I think it's also frustration barking, like, look at all this exciting stuff going on outside my house, and I am stuck in this house. And I can't go say hi. Yeah, because she's very social. So you have to look at the situation. If you have a fearful dog, who's not prosocial. Chances are it's fear barking or warning barking. But if you have a very social dog, it could be like, Oh, she's frustrated because she can't get there. Yeah, get to that thing, right? It's very frustrating.
Libby 24:33
And if your dog is barking from excitement, you could make it worse by doing something like a tree scattered. So it's important to know that kind of thing. You know if your dog is barking because there's so so excited about you know, a person coming into the house and then you make it an even bigger deal by adding all of this good stuff. You're increasing their arousal, you're not helping them Come down and process. So, you know, this treat scatter is a great tool when it comes to something like fear or alert or warning, or guarding. Especially because you're also teaching them the the behavior of moving, say, away from the door and to another spot. But this is why it's important to read your dog, look at their body language and look at the whole picture of what's happening.
Emily 25:34
And one thing we always say in training is like, what would you want your dog to do instead? So, you know, go back and listen to her door greeting if you're if you have a Barker at the door. But my lab Sadie was one of my best dogs ever. She had excitement, slash anxiety barking when people came in the house, it was just too overwhelming for her. So we taught her to get her ball in her mouth, because she loved her ball. And then we would usually, like, go out and play a little ball with her or play a little, you know, so we actually probably amped up her arousal at the door by doing that, but it did work because the barking was just a lot.
Libby 26:16
And so we can't Yeah, you can't bark with a ball in your mouth.
Emily 26:19
can't bark with the ball in your mouth. Yep. So yeah.
Libby 26:23
Yeah. So Daisy has this mixture between excitement and learn the barking that she does every time she goes outside. Because when we first moved into this house, she saw a squirrel out in the backyard, I didn't really realize how aroused she was. And I opened the door and she chased the squirrel. And then she started jumping up trying to catch it in this huge tall tree, like she was never gonna get the squirrel but she started jumping like four feet in the air. And I was like, oh my god, it's so cute. Let me take a video. And she that was so reinforcing to her to know that I thought she was doing something adorable. that to this day, that behavior is ingrained of going to the back door bursting out barking and going to that same tree whether or not there's a squirrel in it. So what we do instead now is we read her body language before we let her go out. And if she's supe amped up, she doesn't get to go out, right at that moment. You know, if she's jumping, spinning, whining, we just take a few steps back until she can kind of get a grip.
Emily 27:45
Get a grip. Yep. You know, one thing we didn't put in there was, you know, a dragline you know, like Piper now sometimes if it's early in the morning, or you know, five o'clock at night and people are having their dinner, I just put her out there with a five foot lead. And I keep an eye on her. You know, don't just leave it up there where she could get into trouble. And then when she's barking, I'll be like, okay, girlfriend. Come on in, you know, so yours. And she's not punished. It's not like you're in trouble. But it's like, that's not going to work for me. Yeah, it can't be barking disturbing people.
Libby 28:23
Yeah, I think that if you have a dog who is barking a lot in the backyard, a cue like leave it or okay. All done. Something like that is really helpful to get them you know, just off of whatever they're fixated on.
Emily 28:43
And then why, you know, for for a backyard Barker, like are all their needs being met. I look at that all the time with Piper like for her when I got her at a year and a half of her emotional and enrichment needs were not being met. And honestly, to this day, I'm always constantly trying to think of like, am I meeting all her needs because this barking in the yard is not going away? Like I'm working on it working on it. It's been a year and a half. You know, but she'll hear something for houses down and because she's apparently is Jill bark sometimes. So we're doing more walks more sniffing I recently got her her off leash tag, and we've been doing some and she's just loving that. So you know, just trying to add more enrichment to her life that would mimic the normal life that parents should have. Because no one ever bred a parent needs to be an effect yard right?
Libby 29:45
Yeah, and that's this is such an important point, Emily, especially when it comes to frustration barking or demand barking, you know, are all of this dog's needs being met? And if not, that's the first place to look,
Emily 30:01
and it's hard to like meet the needs of a young dog.
Libby 30:04
Oh, yeah.
Emily 30:05
Oh, yeah.
Libby 30:07
Yeah, get it. We get it lesson you're struggling with that you understand.
Emily 30:14
And then demand barking, I think is a big side effect of positive reinforcement training if we don't really understand what we're doing with those treats. I've seen that multiple times, even just in short sessions in someone's house, where a dog will just totally stand. Look, you look straight at you and start barking for the traits. Have you had that? Yes, yeah. Yeah. And that's a good one where, you know, like, I feel like, you know, all of this, like, you would not want to do a treat scatter. If your dog is staring straight at you, you've got your treat pouch on or you're standing in front of the treat jar and they bark right at you. Walk away, right? That behavior makes me not only not feed you, it makes me walk away. Right?
Libby 31:07
Yeah. And like I was like, talking about with Daisy, you have to be careful about what you reinforce. Because sometimes all it takes is one time. Right? Right. Yeah. So what what do you do? If you have a dog who is doing something like that? Could you cue an alternate behavior? Like go get your ball or touch? Or would you ignore until the behavior is extinguished?
Emily 31:32
I wouldn't go back to that, like, WTF What's the function and I'm, I've I've met some horrific demand Barkers in my life. So I really do think like, getting up walking out of the room going in the bathroom, closing the door, just like, because I'm not going to name any names. But we have an SDR dog who was adopted out, adore her adore her mom. But whenever somebody comes over, this really smart little dog learned that my mom's busy and wants to interact with this person. If I bark, I will be fat. So we have had, we've loved this person. We've had like multiple trainers go over there for like a little snacks and wine kind of thing. And we all know do not reinforce the demand barking. But at this point is so extreme and learned. The learning history on that demand marking is so intense that like, we end up being like to see anybody have a bone we can give it like pierces through your skull. I feel like demand marking with a smart dog can become weaponized.
Libby 32:44
Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Emily 32:47
So I think just trying not to do anything where it's like, I bark, and then they give me some attention. You know, like redirecting to a hand target or down and then feeding that a smart dog can just work you and then you when you have friends over, you have to just be like, can you do hand targeting with my dog for the next hour? bark at you? So yeah, ignore be like, Why is my dog bark me wants attention. Okay, I'm gonna get up and walk away. Right? And then they can know. Yeah, maybe they need something and come back out and work with them and enrich their lives, but not.
Libby 33:27
Yeah, in that moment. It's so hard. It's so hard. But you can't reinforce behavior you don't want because by definition, that behavior will increase.
Emily 33:38
All right, so this was just a kind of a brief barking overview, I would highly recommend the book barking the sound of a language like $9 on Amazon, or at your local bookstore.
Libby 33:55
Awesome. Yeah. And, you know, like we said, there's so much to talk about here. So um, this will come up again and again and again. But hopefully, this gives you a little bit better of an understanding of why your dog might be barking in a given situation and some tips to deal with.
Emily 34:16
And if you're struggling with barking, feel free to message us on social media or send us an email, because we can refer you to a really great trainers who do virtual consults who could help you break down why your dog is barking? Or maybe we can do a listener question on barking in a few months. So if people want to give us like specifics, really specific of like, maybe sending some videos to because the sound and the body language would probably be super helpful to look at. Yeah, that maybe we could do something like that down the road.
Libby 34:54
Right on. Well, thank you all listeners, as always for listening If this episode was helpful to you, please like share subscribe review, and we will see you next time. Thanks for tuning in. If you liked this episode, don't forget to rate and review. It helps other folks like you find the show. To find out more about our programming and adoptable rescue dogs, you can visit summit dog rescue.org thanks to Mike pesci for the original music and to Alex Lee Ammons and for the love media for graphics production and editing. See you soon on pod to the rescue.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai