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Management with Mary Angilly CTC, CPDT-KAGrowing up, Mary Angilly always wanted to work with animals. Now, she is a professional full-time dog trainer and has a wealth of information to share with you. In this episode, she sits down with Emily and Libby to talk about what “management” is, why it makes dogs more adoptable, and how it is distinct from training. This episode will be especially relevant for folks who foster.
https://www.maryangilly.com/ Mary’s collaborations with Dr. Marc Bekoff featured in Psychology Today:
Check out Mary's Free Guide for Fosters and Adopters below! |
Free Guide for Fosters and Adopters
This foster guide was written and developed by Mary Angilly (CTC, CPDT-KA) and is available for download or general use by any shelter or rescue! Huge thanks to Mary for providing this incredible resource, free of charge.
| Mary Angilly's Foster Guide |
Episode Transcript
Emily 0:09
Welcome to pod to the rescue.
Libby 0:11
Rescuing the dog is just the first step. We're here to help with everything that comes next. Hello, everyone, and welcome back to pod to the rescue. I'm Libby.
Emily 0:21
And I'm Emily.
Libby 0:22
And today we are bringing you an amazing interview with Mary Angilly, she's a local trainer here in Colorado. And she spoke with us about management and its role in training your dog
Emily 0:35
or just having a successful dog.
Libby 0:38
Yes, it's a huge part of setting your dog up for success. Mary Angilly holds a certificate in training and counseling from the Academy for dog trainers and is a certified professional dog trainer knowledge assessed, she is committed to force free evidence based training and streamlining the training process for you and your dog. She works with all aspects of dog behavior and training but specializes in fear reactivity and aggression. You can read more about Mary's qualifications and all of the work that she does on Maryangilly.com. And all of these links will be in our show notes, either in your podcast app or at podtotherescue.com.
Emily 1:20
I love talking to Mary I first met her when she was training at Boulder humane. And she's just exceptional and so smart and such a breadth of knowledge and wisdom and experience.
Libby 1:33
And she's such a wonderful trainer, she came and worked with Daisy and my partner Jason and I early on, we're first fostering her, and she was such a big help. And she also helped us just feel better about Daisy's future and her prospects. So management is a huge part of that. And we definitely encourage you to listen to this episode. If you like it, please share rate review. And let us know what you think on social media.
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to pod to the rescue. I'm Libby here with Emily, my co host and Mary Angilly. Hi, Mary. Hello, thank you so much for spending the time with us today. So Mary, can you tell us a little bit about your background, your history in sheltering and how you became a dog trainer?
Mary 2:31
Yeah, sure. Um, so I have always, always always had an affinity for wanting to work with animals, even when I was a really, really young kiddo. So I would bring all sorts of stuff into the house against my parents wishes. And I think when you're younger, and you're interested in working with animals, the solution that everybody gives you is to become a veterinarian, which is totally fine. That ended up not being what I was looking for. So I went to college, I majored I started as a pre vet major. And while I was at Northeastern University in Boston, the one of the great things there is that they let you do cooperative. They let you do kind of cooperative education. So when you're there, you're allowed to go out, you get credits for working in an actual field that's hopefully going to be related to what you want to do in the future. So I the very, very first thing I did was I worked at a veterinary hospital. And I quickly found out that although it's a really awesome field, and it's completely essential, it is not it was not what I wanted to do. So I kind of switched things around. I ended up majoring and in biology and psychology. So that's what I have my Bachelor of Science in. And while I was living in Boston, I started volunteering at an animal shelter there. It's called the Massachusetts Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals. Short term mspca is a little bit easier to say. And yeah, I just I was volunteering there walking dogs. I really, really loved it. I got into college, I was thinking about all these different types of things I wanted to do. And I ended up getting a job there as an adoption counselor. So I worked there for quite some years. In between after working as a Vet Tech, I also worked for the Humane Society of the United States as a legislative intern. So working a little bit more on policy. didn't love that even though I also think that's a really necessary essential fields for us to have for animal welfare. But sheltering was really where my heart was so worked at the mspca as an adoption counselor, I ended up becoming a supervisor at one of their sister shelters. So I was there for a number of years before I decided that boulder was really looking good. And I ended up getting a job as a training and behavior coordinator at the Humane Society of Boulder Valley. So I was there for two years. A little bit over two years. years, and then I ended up going private practice. And that's what I'm doing right now.
Libby 5:05
That's amazing. That's a really rich, broad background in the animal behavior world. So I feel really lucky that we're talking to you today.
Mary 5:15
Thanks for having me.
Emily 5:16
Yeah, it's, it's such a great mix of understanding rescue dogs and the shelter environment. And also, you know, all that history and education that you bring to the table. So we're really thrilled you can be here. And just to jump right into it, you shared a foster guide that you developed for adopters, or fosters, which we're going to have available on our website that you are willing to have any rescue download to use with their fosters or adopters. And I think that's amazing. And it's an incredible tool. And I'd love if you could just speak a little bit about it and why you've designed it.
Mary 5:57
Yeah. So it's funny. As I have evolved in my professional career, I remember when I first started training, I was very, very hesitant to share information with people. And I think just as time has gone on, I don't understand why that is. And I think that what's most important, because there's so much misinformation out there is that we just get good information out there. And no matter what if you give out free information, like people are still going to need your help. That foster get guide, I think is a great start. But it's definitely not comprehensive and all inclusive with everything that you should be doing. But I just wanted to get something out there so I could help people. And you know, I think that for you guys doing your work with summit dog rescue, you know this, and I know that we've talked about this multiple times. But trying to keep dogs adoptable is a really, really big part of what you do. And that sounds so harsh. But this is largely what that foster and adoption guide is supposed to be about is just keeping everybody successful. So yeah, I originally started it for this rescue. They're their local their foster base, just like you guys are, I think they mostly have are Broomfield focused in Colorado. But they put their rescue efforts largely towards dogs and puppies who are at high risk and shelter settings, they end up taking on a lot of behavior cases. And so I think with dogs that have a lot of sensitivities with behavior, as you're both very familiar with, it's just really essential to try to keep them out of quote unquote, trouble in the first place. And that's what that guide is really all about is just helping people figure out just a baseline as to what things should look like in their home. So their dog does well that they do well. And the next home that they're in, hopefully their last home is where they're ultimately successful.
Emily 7:54
One thing that we really wanted to delve into from that guy today was the part about management, which I think is something that lay people don't understand, I didn't understand it until I got so deeply into this. So can you talk a little bit about management and how it does tend to keep dogs safe if you can put some management into place instead of just throwing them into the deep end of the pool?
Mary 8:18
Yeah, so I think that management, it's all about prevention, and keeping everyone successful. So not just the dog, but the people that they're living with and the other pets that might be in the home as well. Management to be clear is not active training, but it keeps your training safe. And it is one of the number one things that I have clients work on who are working with me in training. So really what it is, it's about controlling your dog's environment to prevent them from practicing or getting better at and being reinforced for unwanted or worried behaviors. I really hate saying unwanted and worried so flippantly unwanted and worried are really defined by us. So you know, really, really easy one to that everybody can think about is like counter surfing, right? So dogs jumping on the counter for food, people do not like that that's a really big one for people are jumping. And really all of those behaviors are actually really normal for dogs. So more. So management is meant to help keep again the dog successful, but more so in our environment.
Libby 9:27
I love that. And we have talked about that on the podcast several times about how so much of our you know, undesired dog behaviors are really just normal dog behaviors. It's just there's a disconnect when they're trying to fit into our human world. So how would you recommend using management when first bringing home a foster dog? What are some of the most important things that a foster parent needs to do?
Mary 9:54
Yeah, so I think for a new foster the number one thing to keep in mind and some of this overlap lapse with some of your recent podcasts. Recent traumatic experiences have happened to your foster dog no matter where they're coming from, even if you just got them from another really loving home, which is generally not the case, right. So that does sometimes happen. But I think for the most part, a lot of these dogs that are coming in, especially to Colorado, we're getting a lot of transports. So these kiddos are coming from either really traumatic experiences in the shelter, or they've had a lot of intensive medical care or behavior evaluations, or they've been traveling for quite quite a far distance to get here, no matter what even though all of those things are for the better. And they're meant to help the dog have a good life moving forward. Those are really traumatic for the dog. Unfortunately, we can't just explain to them, you know what's going on. And Hey, kiddo, I know this is really tough for you right now. But you're going to be okay, we can't do any of that. And so you know, all of that to say, the number one thing people need to really think about when they're welcoming either a newly adopted dog or a foster dog is to go slow, like those two words just go slow. Every dog is an individual. So different dogs are going to respond differently to these situations. So really, really great thing to keep in mind with along the lines of going slow, are sticking to a predictable routine for a little while, offering the dog a safe space to be in where they will not be bothered by anybody, have kids, adults, other pets in the house, etc. And to really just keep things quiet, I think that we're in a really big rush to let them know how much we care about them and how safe they are and how we can give them all these good experiences. But they don't know that right? And there's plenty of time to introduce them to all of these brand new things. So the biggest thing is just give them some predictability and take it really, really slow, and let them come out of their shell at their own pace.
Libby 12:01
I love this so much. And it's totally referencing back to our interview with Patricia McConnell, this idea that decompression as a management strategy is so key for a new foster or a new rescue dog.
Mary 12:17
Definitely. And the other thing I want to say is to you have mentioned this a little bit before, and we mentioned it earlier in our podcasts, but it's also a lifesaver for foster dogs. So not only does management and quote unquote, keeping them out of trouble, helped make them more adoptable. But it's it really is just a lifesaver. I think the other thing to keep in mind is you know, as much as I love when people want to adopt, and they want to rescue, it's wonderful. I love it, it's really great. But I do think just in general, most people when they're looking for a new dog, they don't they don't know any of the selections of dogs that they're looking at, right? They're they're looking for maybe a certain type, or they like to go hiking or they're active or whatever. But I do think that in general, most people aren't, you know, you don't see a dogs description that fits somebody, even if it was a really terrible situation that set the dog up to do poorly. Anybody who sees that generally, they're not looking for that when they're looking for a new dog, which is completely understandable. But I do think that, you know, I hate to put the pressure on. But with a new foster, your job is to keep them safe, and to keep them from making mistakes so they can get into a home more easily.
Emily 13:32
That is such good information. And I think that the general population doesn't understand that, like you were saying, a dog who makes that split second decision that the man coming home at 10 o'clock at night, in the dark, you know, in a new home is actually you know, your son who was away at college bites the sun, that is often a deal breaker for that dog's life like gets returned to the shelter returned to the rescue, and is no longer rehome bubble because they have bitten so for management just to be clear for people who don't really know what that term means you would say like baby gates, like no X pens, could you go into that a little bit?
Mary 14:17
Yeah, um, so in terms of quote unquote controlling a dog's environment to keep them successful. Definitely, that may involve baby gates, having your dog leash in certain scenarios. If we want to get really serious there are definitely some dogs that I work with who have done some damage to other animals or to people and those kiddos we work on training a whole bunch and they wear a muzzle when they're out and about just to keep everybody safe just in case. So management definitely is about those kinds of physical Prevention's at times as much as possible. And I think you know, just to keep it light as well. Back to the counter surfing. It could also be something as simple as not leaving steak on the counter that you're not looking after.
Libby 15:03
We all the time, we get applications who say that counter surfing is a deal breaker behavior for them. And it's kind of funny to me because it's pretty easy to prevent. You know, you can, you can block off your kitchen, you can not leave things out, it's if we can prevent our foster dogs from learning that oh my gosh, counter surfing is amazing because I just got a giant steak. It just makes them that much easier to place in a forever home.
Emily 15:34
That's so interesting, because actually a week ago, our foster dog Loki was in a weakened Foster and they put some wild salmon on the countertop to thaw. And he got it so so he enjoyed his beautiful Alaskan wild salmon. They were like, where's the salmon, we thought we put it out. So you know back to that like preventing them from rehearsing or practicing, you know, speaking a little bit more to that, like anything that they're successful at that behavior will show up more. So, you know, inadvertently he was trained with like a huge jackpot to counter surf. That's gonna take a while to undo.
Mary 16:20
Exactly. And, you know, I'll be honest with you guys, I am a trainer and I live with my partner and he's very very good with dogs too. And he's probably heard more than he ever wanted to know about to dog training and behavior. But we I think it was a year ago. I was off to play a soccer game. We had made these really fancy homemade quiches really expensive ingredients, all the stuff, he my boyfriend left them on the counter to cool. And I was like, Don't forget about the gate because we have a gate up my dog loves food, he will totally counter serve, and I can't blame him for that he's a dog right? There's good stuff up there and he's gonna get it. We and by we I mean my maybe my partner, he forgot to put the gate up, went downstairs was carried away doing something else and the quiches disappeared. So. So what happens to everybody? And that is the thing about management is that you have to get yourself in the routine of practicing it, it may be a little bit of a bummer at first with adjusting your behavior as a human but once you get used to doing it, it's it just becomes habit. So that has not since happened. That was a pretty big Punisher for us to lose our quiches.
Emily 17:30
Right. I love that story. Because it's true. Like even though we're saying management management, like we all have our lapses like, don't feel terrible. If you left, the key show like it happens, yes, you did just train your dog to get up on the counter and just be more compassionate with the dog when you see them putting their nose up there, because we know that they just got a big reward the week before for doing that.
Libby 17:52
So with some behavior concerns, maybe some of the more serious behavior concerns, management might be a long term thing. And as much as it would be great to think that we can solve a behavior problem entirely and then remove the baby gates and take off the muzzle and unclip the leash. It's not always a realistic. So what are some ways we can make management sustainable for long term use in these cases?
Mary 18:27
Yeah, so I think that's a really great point. Whenever I'm working with clients or with new foster parents, or people who have just taking home a new dog, I often talk to them about like, what is the cost benefit of the situation? Is it worth it to experiment? Generally? The answer to that question is no. And I also asked, Would everyone just be less stressed if we just put management in place? And the answer to that is also generally Yes. So especially when it comes to the more serious behavior issues, I do find that with 99% of my clients, management is actually easier to implement than it is to try to strictly adhere to a very specific training plan. So for example, I mostly do these days work with dogs that are struggling with fear, reactivity, anxiety, I hate to say the word aggression, although aggression, it's got a lot of bad connotations. But aggression is really normal with animals. It's also pretty normal with us, we're also animals as people. But yeah, so that is a large proportion of the dogs that I'm working with these days. So for 99% of those dogs, there is a level of management in place long term for them, and for their guardian, and that's just the way it is. I think that a lot of that is about finding what the balance is for people and what they've got the bandwidth to deal with, and also what their dog has the bandwidth to deal with. So for example, really classic, a lot of dogs that I'm working with are either worried about other dogs Dogs are they're worried about unfamiliar people, that's actually pretty common. I know, it's a really, really hard, quote unquote issue for people and their dogs to deal with. But it is pretty common these days. So for example, if I'm working with a dog who has expressed some discomfort or an unfamiliar people, depending on the level of severity, they might have to go behind a baby gate forever, anytime there's a stranger coming over the house. And that actually ends up being way more comfortable for the dog and for the stranger coming in and for their owner. So really, it's just about trying to help people kind of just lean towards what they can achieve short term, and then getting into the routine of that. And once they're doing it, and their habit becomes routine, then it's just okay for them to do it long term.
Libby 20:49
Something that that this is reminding me of is when you helped Daisy out whenever I was first fostering her, and you came over and had a consultation with Jason and Daisy and I and one of the things that you really impressed upon us was, do whatever we can to keep her from practicing the behavior of barking and lunging at bicycles. And at first I thought, oh, my gosh, there's, I can't do this, I can, I can't do that, for that, you know, that's, that's so hard. I'm not gonna be able to do this forever. And a couple years on now, I have a few places that I love to go with her to hike, where there are no bikes, there are no off leash dogs running up on her. And you know, it's just part of our routine now. And I love those hikes, I love those walks, whenever we can just go out and not stress about it. It's one of my favorite parts of the week. And that's a management strategy of only taking her places where she's not going to lose her mind over a biker coming up on the trail. So, you know, for us, while we are always working on the training around bikes, it's it's nice to just have that relief. And, you know, know that we don't have to worry about it. And you know, something else that I think you brought up at that, you know, that consultation was that if Daisy's always in that reactionary state, she can't learn she's over threshold. And so doing whatever we can to manage her environment and keep her under a threshold is the only way she's going to be able to learn.
Mary 22:40
Yeah, and so along those lines to be more specific, I think that's a great example. A lot of it too, is just troubleshooting with people. So this might be up to a trainer or a foster coordinator, or whoever, just troubleshooting what people can achieve. So definitely, I sometimes will have people who have leash reactive kiddos, I'll have them draw, I'm like, Hey, so on a scale of one to 10 how stressed are you 10 Being extremely stressed in your neighborhood walking your dog or how busy is your neighborhood? And if their answer is eight, nine or 10, then I'm instructing them to please go drive somewhere like pop your dog in the car and drive them somewhere that's a little bit less stressful. There's a dog that I've been working with for a little while she's got a she's got a lot of stuff going on. She was rescued at a very young age, she's only eight weeks, she was only eight weeks old when her people took her home. She's a year and a half, two years now. And they drive her to an industrial park because their apartment complex is too busy. So they would literally walk from their house downstairs to their garage sticker in the car, they have blackout curtains on their windows, they driver to a park that there is never anybody at and it is way less stressful for not just the dog but also for them. And they're happy with it and they're comfortable doing it now, to them that outweighs you know, the convenience of walking in the neighborhood when there are a ton of people and dogs around and they everybody just has a hard time.
Libby 24:06
So, Mary when we're talking about a new foster dog and some management strategies, what would you recommend if there are other pets in the house and kids in the house?
Mary 24:19
Yeah, so for the most part, unless it is a dog that has a very, very clear, very positive history with other animals and with kids. I make a pretty sweeping rule with all new dogs, whether they're Foster's or new newly adopted dogs to manage them really, really heavily for at least a few weeks. Honestly also, even if the dog that you're taking home with you that you're fostering or that you're adopting does have a good history with kiddos are with other pets. That dog does not know if your kids and I don't know your other pets. So regardless, I think having a general rule of being really strict with your management around on kids and other pets at first is essential. So what would that look like? A really, really big one is around resources. So food, toys, sometimes even water bowls, food would also account for human mealtimes as well. So as a general rule, anytime anybody tells me that they just got a dog that they're that they adopted or that they're fostering, I always will have people recommend that people separate their new foster new adopted newly adopted dog from other members of the household while they're eating while they're chewing on something really delicious. While they're resting even. So all of those situations, I know that can be really hard for people to manage at first. So that's where our baby gates would come into play or closed doors. I have a family that I'm working with right now who just adopted a dog and their two dogs, they have a newly adopted dog and a current resident dog. They're both this is what the family wanted to do. Both of the dogs are on leash ones with mom and one's with dad, and they're across the table from each other, like six plus feet away while they're eating meals. And the dogs won't tolerate being in a space by themselves when their family is eating dinner. So this is what their solution is. And it's working for everybody. But just really keeping that separation there. So there is no conflict over food, or there's no conflict over other resources. I think the other one with young kids, that can get really tough. We I love it when families want to adopt a dog and they want their young kiddos to be involved in the caretaking of their dog and all that great stuff. I think a big one is helping kids learn healthy boundaries around the dog. So part of that management might look like again, hey, let's leave fluffy alone while she's eating her dinner, her breakfast, no one's gonna go near we're gonna leave her alone Tiller bowls empty. And another big one that people don't often look at. And this is not just apply for children, but it's for the adults as well. Is Does your dog feel like being petted right now? That's a really big one. I think again, you know, there are all different levels of stress that dogs are dealing with when they're getting into a new home no matter where they're coming from. And so we love dogs, right? You you adopt a dog or you get a dog because you like dogs. And so what's the number one thing you want to do you want to pet them, you want to hang out with them, you want to be close to them. But sometimes they need just need some time to figure out that you are safe to snuggle with. And so a lot of that is about, hey, I'm going to call you to me, if you don't want to come over here for pets, I'm not going to pet you. If you come over here and I start petting you under the chin or on the shoulder. Those are the polite ways to pet a dog, I might pause after I do that for a couple of seconds and see see what you do right? If I'm petting you, and you keep leaning in and you're laying on top of me for petting, great, I'm gonna keep petting you. But if you kind of leave you wander away, or you're leaning away from me when I'm trying to pet you, that's a really, really big sign. Hey, all right, no big deal, I'm just going to give you a little bit of space. And so that's a big one that I think people should be working on with their kiddos is whether or not your dog feels like interacting.
Libby 28:09
I love that. And it's so important. And it also helps build trust with that dog that you're going to pay attention to their signals. And if you just give them that space, it still, they might be more likely in the future to want to snuggle because they know that, okay, it's no big deal. If I'm done, I can get up, I can walk away. And they'll let me.
Mary 28:31
So yeah, for sure. I think a big part of that, again, is about giving them choices. And when we take away their choices, that's where we're getting into those tricky situations where a dog is feeling like they might need to bite, or to lunge or to snap. So the more choices that we can give them, not just within Richmond, but whether or not they want to engage in a certain activity with you is really, really important to look at.
Emily 28:52
I love that. It's so interesting. I'm thinking about this while you're talking and I guess there's kind of two layers that we're discussing about with management. There's like the initial management when you bring your dog home, and then you're slowly assessing like in the most like small increments possible, like what can my dog handle, without them, like really having an over threshold freaked out moment. And then it seems like some of these dogs, you know, it's good to calibrate people's expectations that, you know, they might not be able to go to brew pubs, they might not be able to walk on these busy trails with tons of dogs on leash, and then to know that they're not failures as dog guardians, if they put some management in that it's actually something that we as trainers highly recommend, so that your dog can learn. And also, you know, their nervous systems can decompress. And then there's also what you brought up in, I believe, the article with Marc Bekoff, which we can get to in a second trigger stacking, which I think is something that most people don't understand. Do you want to talk a little bit about that?
Mary 30:01
Yeah, so I think that a lot of, I think in general, we just have unrealistic unrealistic expectations of our dogs. That is nobody's fault. I think that things have just been set up such that this is what we expect of them. And I do think with along the lines of management, a lot of it really is about looking at the individual dog you're working with, and figuring out what they can and cannot handle and what their personalities are like. Dogs are not robots, there's not a sweeping statement you can make about all of them, in terms of in those terms. So a lot of it is just about learning about your individual dog, and just resetting those expectations. And a lot of owners that I work with they I tell them, Hey, your kiddo maybe can have some dog friends and do some small playdates, but they don't want to go to the dog park and 99% of the time, people are okay with that. Even my dog, he's, he's great with other dogs. He doesn't have any behavior issues. I specifically did not want to take my work home with me. So I got very lucky. And some trainers helped me at the Humane Society of Boulder Valley with picking him out. And he's a great dog. But yeah, he sometimes resource guards a little bit with dogs. He doesn't know very normal behavior. But if we have a party, do I want to deal with watching the dogs like a hawk to see if somebody accidentally dropped some macaroni on the ground? No. So we just don't have to other dogs come to our house. And that makes it just so much easier. So yeah, I think a lot of it is about just looking at the individual dog and seeing what they can and can't handle and what they do and don't want to do. I know there's definitely a balance there. But that's definitely a big part of it.
Libby 31:43
So yeah, before we jump into the longer conversation about trigger stacking, tell us about working with Dr. Marc Bekoff, because you've been co authoring articles with him. And that's kind of a big deal. So can you tell us how you met him and how you started writing articles with him?
Mary 32:03
Yeah, um, I'm not gonna lie to you guys. He is he's one of my heroes. When I was a child, I was reading books that he wrote, just on his own with other authors and with Jane Goodall. So I was very, very, very excited to meet him. And it's very, it's kind of weird how it worked out. I actually, I don't think I told you guys this, specifically you Emily. But you had asked me for some consulting help with one of your one of your rescue kiddos, one of the dogs that came to your rescue. And funny enough, I was at a console there. Then I met another a trainer who was also kind of working on that case. He and I do not share the same training philosophy. But we decided to meet up for coffee at Mark back offs, a booksigning that he had in Boulder. So we both we met up for coffee there, Mark showed up to do his book signing, it was for his book, unleashing your dog. And while we were there, the trainer I was with was speaking up quite a bit about dog training. And I of course, it was marked back off, right. So I was just like, Oh my God, I am so embarrassed. I don't want to bring attention to myself. And you know, he, he just ended up talking to us after his book signing. And he asked me if I wanted to meet for coffee. And I was like, Of course I will meet you whenever you want. I'll cancel my schedule. Whenever you want to meet Mark, that sounds great. So we met for coffee. And he was just asking me a little bit more about dog training and working with dog guardians. And we got to talking and he asked if I wanted to write something together. So the very first thing we wrote about was a verses and dog training, which was extremely exciting for me. And since then we've just been collaborating for the last few years. And it's it's really, really fun. And he's a super accessible guy. And he's really, really great to work with.
Libby 33:59
That's so awesome. And what a cool story too
Mary 34:02
yeah, very, very random. And then for anybody who doesn't know, Marc Bekoff, he is he's Professor Emeritus of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology at the University of Colorado Boulder. He's a co founder with Jane Goodall also of ecologists for the Ethical Treatment of Animals. And he's also an ambassador for her roots and shoots program. He is He's amazing. He's won many awards for his scientific research, including a Guggenheim Fellowship. He's published a ton of essays, books, he's edited some encyclopedias, um, he's really just, he's one of the leaders of our time, I think of animal welfare and behavior. And so he's, he's really, really an amazing guy.
Libby 34:53
So okay, let's get back to trigger second what I think we were about to define too. or stalking?
Mary 35:01
Yeah, so trigger snacking is it's a toxic accumulation of stress and a short period of time, that doesn't allow the individual to go back down to their baseline or go back up to their baseline. So this does not just happen to dogs, it happens to people as well, I believe also just if you were looking at scientific research behind it, it's pretty well known and a lot of different mammal species altogether.
Libby 35:29
Wow. So it's like, if I got a bad night's sleep, and then I spilled coffee all over my favorite louse, and then I was running late. And then the final thing would be like I got in a fender bender on the way to work like that would, for me that I would totally be pushed over the edge. So a similar thing can happen to our dogs.
Emily 35:50
And you probably wouldn't respond or there's possibility you wouldn't respond with as much grace, as had only one thing happened because I've personally been trigger stacked. And I've had those moments where I'm like, Wow, I did not show up as my best person there, I was cranky or snapped at somebody. And normally, you would not do that if it was just one incident. But you'd had enough incidents in a short period of time that you just kind of explode or you know, lose your cool.
Mary 36:20
Exactly. And that is exactly what I was going to say. And people, it might look like you screaming at your partner, when you hopefully do not do that on a regular basis, or you cry and it feels really, really out of character for you. Or you get in that fender bender, and the person who's behind you who hit your car, you just scream at them. And you normally wouldn't deal with a situation like that. So for for dogs, it's very common for people to argue when dogs argue we tend to as a species of humans, like have a really hard time with it. Although it's pretty normal. For dogs, what that might look like is really out of character like lunging, or they're barking or growling when they might not normally or even biting. And that's a really big one that we often get really upset about it, which is definitely something to pay attention to. But we can push our dogs any dog really to buy, especially if they're trigger stalking.
Libby 37:15
And that outburst of behavior is like the final straw kind of in its chain of events. So maybe they had a vet appointment in the morning and got a shot. And then they went to the dog park and then a new dog comes over to the house. And then there ends up in some resource guarding or something like that. And it's just like a huge bunch of stressful stuff that all happened in one day. And by the end of it, they kind of lose their cool is that right?
Mary 37:44
Exactly. And the article that I wrote with Mark most recently, that was actually that's a pretty good close example to one of the examples I gave with an actual client and dog of mine. This kiddo is very, very social with dogs. Once in a while Hill guard has food or toys from dogs, he doesn't know very well, but that's really well managed by his people. But he had a rough couple of weeks. This dog he injured his paw. So he was on cage rest for three weeks. He is a purebred butala, but he's a very young high energy dog. He gets off leash five times a week plus with his people usually. So he had three weeks of cage dressed, his paw was painful. He once he came off of cage dressed, he went back out on the trails and a dog went after him. No damage happened to him, but I'm sure it was very scary for him. And especially after just not seeing any other dogs for three weeks. So that all happens. And then really shortly after his people decided to try to give him some dog access with a puppy. And the puppy just busted into their house. There was food and toys all around this dog was the the adult dog was looking a little bit uncomfortable, but they were kind of like well, he does well with dogs. It'll be fine. Let's just see how it goes. And he actually ended up biting this puppy right in the face. And he's never ever ever bitten a dog before. It was crazy for these guardians to see that and they were, you know, of course understandably very, very concerned. And we had to have a really long discussion about hey, your dog has never bitten a dog before if your dog was regularly biting dogs, we'd be having a different conversation. This was something that was out of character for him because he was trigger sacking more likely than not.
Emily 39:30
Yes, it's so interesting and unfortunately people you know, the regular public doesn't understand like how simple management and going slow could prevent something like the I don't know who it was but some trainer calls fine, the four letter F word because people people say you know he was fine and then you know he hit the mailman or he was fine and then he hit the vet and you know, out of the blue So, circling back to that management, it's like, when when you go to the zoo, if you're a zoo goer, you don't They don't just let the rhinos and the hippos and the lions run free and hope that they don't attack people. So going back to your expectations, like we expect our dogs to just go with the flow and be happy with everything, and get over everything immediately, and it can build up and boom, you know, dog bites somebody and that's, that's tough. And going back to that salmon on the countertop, it's the same thing of bite can be very reinforcing for a dog. Because if someone's too close, or the puppies annoying them and they bite it, they learn quickly, that thing pretty much goes away. Wouldn't you agree with that? Mary?
Mary 40:46
Yeah, for sure. Biting although it's done in a different capacity than jumping on the counter for food. Ultimately, if you look at the psychology behind the behavior, yes, it's meant to get some sort of results. Generally, when dogs are biting, it is not for fun, unless they're playing right and not breaking skin biting. But generally, if a dog is upset, biting it is to create space. And if that works for them, you know, it's it can become a part of the repertoire for sure.
Emily 41:15
I love what you said about it's to create space. So that's basically why we put some management in so that they don't have to create space and define their boundaries, we slowly do. Like with a baby gate, or leash, we say, like, let's see how you feel. In this situation, instead of a puppy running up, or a kid running over and kissing them. We have a little bit of management in place and assess slowly, how things are going for our dog.
Libby 41:43
I love this conversation also. Because for me, it's bringing up the idea that management isn't just about while these tools are really important part of management. That's not the whole picture. And like you were saying earlier, Mary, it depends on the individual dog, but management might look like something. Something like Okay, so we went to the vet today. So we're going to wait a couple days to go hike on a busy trail, because I know that vet visit was stressful. And we're gonna let them decompress and come down off of that stress before we put them in another potentially stressful situation.
Mary 42:19
Yeah, exactly. And I think the only thing that becomes tricky. And again, a lot of this is about reading your individual dog, I recently took a a continuing education course, about stress and the power of choice, and the research about how long it takes to fully decompress. It's a little bit confusing. I don't know if we fully know, I don't know, if it's, you know, three days on the.or, four days on the dot, I think largely, it's going to depend a again, on your individual dog, and B, there's still more research being done. The course the course that I just took, actually, they were saying, there's some research papers behind this, I can dig them out. But with some of the dogs that they were working with, with the research they're doing on stress, they were showing that some dogs even need like over a week of time to decompress, even from one single small incident, like going to the vet or like fireworks or things like that.
Libby 43:16
Wow, fascinating. As a trainer, do you have any tips for Foster's or adopters on how to tell if your dog has kind of recovered from a stressful event to you know, be able to manage their environment and avoid trigger stalking?
Mary 43:30
Yeah, I think the number one thing is looking at body language. It's really hard, right? We can't talk to these guys and have conversations with them and ask them how they're doing. But I think the number one thing is being really really good at reading body language. So you can see what those subtle signs of stress are, and prevent any of those overt, quote unquote, outbursts. I think another thing too, that we kind of forget about. Enrichment is like this Hot Topic word that's going around in the dog training world and elsewhere. And yes, enrichment is really important. It's giving your dog's quality outlets for normal behavior, right. So a lot of people look at it from a standpoint of trying to expend energy, but I do think also enrichment just counter acts stress that happens to dogs and to people right same thing for us. So I think you know, just using enrichment to your advantage where you can to help dogs deal with the stressors that they encounter a little bit better. And then also reading their body language so you know exactly how they are doing at any given moment. And then looking at the individual individual dog and just making sure right, well fluffy tends to get a little bit more nervous then you know, then spot does spots really chill spa can handle anything. But fluffy gets really nervous about X, Y and Z. So we just went to the vet and she just went to the groomer. I'm going to keep her quiet and give her some really good low stress enrichment for the next few days and then reevaluate and look at her body language and see how she's doing.
Emily 44:57
Oh gosh, I love that and we are going to do an entire podcast on enrichment. But it's not even planned yet. So can you just give a brief overview of what specifically enrichment is define it and give a couple of ideas of how people could do it?
Mary 45:11
Yeah, so I think that enrichment is really about looking at dog or species specific quality opportunities for them to practice normal behavior. So that brings us back to the behaviors that we often do not like to see in dogs like jumping, chewing, digging, all those behaviors are actually really, really normal dog behaviors. So I encourage people to look at the ways that they can let their dogs practices, behaviors, and outlets that are legal. So again, this is going to depend on your individual dog. And some dogs don't like to play tug. But some dogs love it. Some dogs don't like fetch, some dogs are don't love food quite so much that they would work on a really difficult food puzzle toy, but some do. So I think again, a lot of it is about looking at your individual dog really, really getting to know them. And that's going to help you determine what kind of enrichment you should give them. I think one big thing that I want people to really keep in mind with enrichment is that it's not about you, it's about your dog and what they actually like to do. So for example, I love running, I run a whole bunch, my dog is 10, some 10 year old dogs like to run my dog is not one of them. He only likes to run for very short bursts, if he's chasing a squirrel, or a small animal. Otherwise, going on a run like sure tomorrow, I could take him on a three mile run and make him do it and he would be tired after. But that, to me is not good quality enrichment, because it's not something that he would actually choose. So a lot of it is about looking at the individual and what they actually enjoy doing. One really easy, easy, low hanging piece of fruit for people that does not involve in law, involve a lot of efforts is feeding their dogs out of food puzzle toys, or giving them opportunities to forage for their meals. That's a really, really big one. That's super easy. No, that is not everything. But that is definitely one that I suggest to a lot of people if they're not doing it already. When I'm working with them and their dogs. There is a term what is it? Contrafreeloading? Have you guys heard of that before? Yes,
Emily 47:21
I love that.
Mary 47:22
So not to bore our listeners. But basically, I think that this was done. And this has been done in a lot of different species. And I believe that domestic cats, funnily enough, are the only ones who go against this kind of general grain. But when given the choice to work for your food, or to have it handed to you freely is and this has been shown across the board with a lot of different animals. They all choose to work for their food. I don't know exactly what that function is. The speculation is that there's just something satisfying about going to work and getting a paycheck right for people like working for your money. It's it's a lot of they show this a lot as well with like retirees. So adult human retirees who don't have to work anymore, they still choose to go to work to do something with themselves. Again, speculation, but that's so that's just one really easy, low hanging fruit for people that involves little to no effort is just filling up food puzzle toys for their dogs. If you have a yard and you are willing to do it, just scattering some kibble in your yard for your dog to forage for. So foraging for foods a really easy one. And then the other one that I'm trying to push people towards is just letting their dogs go for like either like sniff fiery walks or decompression walks. And what I mean by that for anybody who doesn't know, I'm just letting them sniff and check stuff out. Like that's actually really huge and helping them relieve stress and giving them some good enrichment.
Emily 48:53
Yes, sniffing is so great for them. And I, I love when I when I'm driving my car, and I see people letting their dogs sniff I want to cheer like Yes, good job. Letting your dog smell.
Libby 49:06
Hey, if I'm short on time, and I know that Daisy needs to get out and just do something, I will, you know, maybe we'll just do a 20 minute walk, but we sniff whatever she wants to sniff and I feel like that's better than walking three miles but like really rushing her along?
Mary 49:24
Yeah, definitely. Definitely. And in that foster guide, that you guys are gonna post there is a just a one pager on enrichment. So it goes into it a little bit more. I mentioned this before, but the food puzzle toys and sniffing are not all inclusive. There's a little bit more on that handout that is also not all inclusive, but it could give some people a little bit of a better idea of some other things to work on.
Emily 49:48
Well, we're just so appreciative of that guide. There's just as we've said, so much misinformation out there. And anyone who fosters or adopts a dog loves dogs like You're bringing them home because they want to do the right thing. And it's difficult to find the right information. And you have such an incredible background and education. And so the free resource of that foster guide and adopter guide is such an invaluable tool. So we're so grateful.
Mary 50:18
Thank you. I mean, I really appreciate you sharing it. And I think that the more good information we can get out there, the better.
Libby 50:24
All right, well, thank you so much, Mary. This was amazing. We covered a lot of really important stuff, and I cannot wait to share this with our listeners.
Mary 50:33
Thank you both. I'm so excited to be on your podcast.
Libby 50:39
Thanks for tuning in. If you liked this episode, don't forget to rate and review. It helps other folks like you find the show. To find out more about our programming and adoptable rescue dogs. You can visit summit dog rescue.org thanks to Mike pesci for the original music and to Alex Lee Ammons and for the love media for graphics production and editing. See you soon on pod to the rescue.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Welcome to pod to the rescue.
Libby 0:11
Rescuing the dog is just the first step. We're here to help with everything that comes next. Hello, everyone, and welcome back to pod to the rescue. I'm Libby.
Emily 0:21
And I'm Emily.
Libby 0:22
And today we are bringing you an amazing interview with Mary Angilly, she's a local trainer here in Colorado. And she spoke with us about management and its role in training your dog
Emily 0:35
or just having a successful dog.
Libby 0:38
Yes, it's a huge part of setting your dog up for success. Mary Angilly holds a certificate in training and counseling from the Academy for dog trainers and is a certified professional dog trainer knowledge assessed, she is committed to force free evidence based training and streamlining the training process for you and your dog. She works with all aspects of dog behavior and training but specializes in fear reactivity and aggression. You can read more about Mary's qualifications and all of the work that she does on Maryangilly.com. And all of these links will be in our show notes, either in your podcast app or at podtotherescue.com.
Emily 1:20
I love talking to Mary I first met her when she was training at Boulder humane. And she's just exceptional and so smart and such a breadth of knowledge and wisdom and experience.
Libby 1:33
And she's such a wonderful trainer, she came and worked with Daisy and my partner Jason and I early on, we're first fostering her, and she was such a big help. And she also helped us just feel better about Daisy's future and her prospects. So management is a huge part of that. And we definitely encourage you to listen to this episode. If you like it, please share rate review. And let us know what you think on social media.
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to pod to the rescue. I'm Libby here with Emily, my co host and Mary Angilly. Hi, Mary. Hello, thank you so much for spending the time with us today. So Mary, can you tell us a little bit about your background, your history in sheltering and how you became a dog trainer?
Mary 2:31
Yeah, sure. Um, so I have always, always always had an affinity for wanting to work with animals, even when I was a really, really young kiddo. So I would bring all sorts of stuff into the house against my parents wishes. And I think when you're younger, and you're interested in working with animals, the solution that everybody gives you is to become a veterinarian, which is totally fine. That ended up not being what I was looking for. So I went to college, I majored I started as a pre vet major. And while I was at Northeastern University in Boston, the one of the great things there is that they let you do cooperative. They let you do kind of cooperative education. So when you're there, you're allowed to go out, you get credits for working in an actual field that's hopefully going to be related to what you want to do in the future. So I the very, very first thing I did was I worked at a veterinary hospital. And I quickly found out that although it's a really awesome field, and it's completely essential, it is not it was not what I wanted to do. So I kind of switched things around. I ended up majoring and in biology and psychology. So that's what I have my Bachelor of Science in. And while I was living in Boston, I started volunteering at an animal shelter there. It's called the Massachusetts Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals. Short term mspca is a little bit easier to say. And yeah, I just I was volunteering there walking dogs. I really, really loved it. I got into college, I was thinking about all these different types of things I wanted to do. And I ended up getting a job there as an adoption counselor. So I worked there for quite some years. In between after working as a Vet Tech, I also worked for the Humane Society of the United States as a legislative intern. So working a little bit more on policy. didn't love that even though I also think that's a really necessary essential fields for us to have for animal welfare. But sheltering was really where my heart was so worked at the mspca as an adoption counselor, I ended up becoming a supervisor at one of their sister shelters. So I was there for a number of years before I decided that boulder was really looking good. And I ended up getting a job as a training and behavior coordinator at the Humane Society of Boulder Valley. So I was there for two years. A little bit over two years. years, and then I ended up going private practice. And that's what I'm doing right now.
Libby 5:05
That's amazing. That's a really rich, broad background in the animal behavior world. So I feel really lucky that we're talking to you today.
Mary 5:15
Thanks for having me.
Emily 5:16
Yeah, it's, it's such a great mix of understanding rescue dogs and the shelter environment. And also, you know, all that history and education that you bring to the table. So we're really thrilled you can be here. And just to jump right into it, you shared a foster guide that you developed for adopters, or fosters, which we're going to have available on our website that you are willing to have any rescue download to use with their fosters or adopters. And I think that's amazing. And it's an incredible tool. And I'd love if you could just speak a little bit about it and why you've designed it.
Mary 5:57
Yeah. So it's funny. As I have evolved in my professional career, I remember when I first started training, I was very, very hesitant to share information with people. And I think just as time has gone on, I don't understand why that is. And I think that what's most important, because there's so much misinformation out there is that we just get good information out there. And no matter what if you give out free information, like people are still going to need your help. That foster get guide, I think is a great start. But it's definitely not comprehensive and all inclusive with everything that you should be doing. But I just wanted to get something out there so I could help people. And you know, I think that for you guys doing your work with summit dog rescue, you know this, and I know that we've talked about this multiple times. But trying to keep dogs adoptable is a really, really big part of what you do. And that sounds so harsh. But this is largely what that foster and adoption guide is supposed to be about is just keeping everybody successful. So yeah, I originally started it for this rescue. They're their local their foster base, just like you guys are, I think they mostly have are Broomfield focused in Colorado. But they put their rescue efforts largely towards dogs and puppies who are at high risk and shelter settings, they end up taking on a lot of behavior cases. And so I think with dogs that have a lot of sensitivities with behavior, as you're both very familiar with, it's just really essential to try to keep them out of quote unquote, trouble in the first place. And that's what that guide is really all about is just helping people figure out just a baseline as to what things should look like in their home. So their dog does well that they do well. And the next home that they're in, hopefully their last home is where they're ultimately successful.
Emily 7:54
One thing that we really wanted to delve into from that guy today was the part about management, which I think is something that lay people don't understand, I didn't understand it until I got so deeply into this. So can you talk a little bit about management and how it does tend to keep dogs safe if you can put some management into place instead of just throwing them into the deep end of the pool?
Mary 8:18
Yeah, so I think that management, it's all about prevention, and keeping everyone successful. So not just the dog, but the people that they're living with and the other pets that might be in the home as well. Management to be clear is not active training, but it keeps your training safe. And it is one of the number one things that I have clients work on who are working with me in training. So really what it is, it's about controlling your dog's environment to prevent them from practicing or getting better at and being reinforced for unwanted or worried behaviors. I really hate saying unwanted and worried so flippantly unwanted and worried are really defined by us. So you know, really, really easy one to that everybody can think about is like counter surfing, right? So dogs jumping on the counter for food, people do not like that that's a really big one for people are jumping. And really all of those behaviors are actually really normal for dogs. So more. So management is meant to help keep again the dog successful, but more so in our environment.
Libby 9:27
I love that. And we have talked about that on the podcast several times about how so much of our you know, undesired dog behaviors are really just normal dog behaviors. It's just there's a disconnect when they're trying to fit into our human world. So how would you recommend using management when first bringing home a foster dog? What are some of the most important things that a foster parent needs to do?
Mary 9:54
Yeah, so I think for a new foster the number one thing to keep in mind and some of this overlap lapse with some of your recent podcasts. Recent traumatic experiences have happened to your foster dog no matter where they're coming from, even if you just got them from another really loving home, which is generally not the case, right. So that does sometimes happen. But I think for the most part, a lot of these dogs that are coming in, especially to Colorado, we're getting a lot of transports. So these kiddos are coming from either really traumatic experiences in the shelter, or they've had a lot of intensive medical care or behavior evaluations, or they've been traveling for quite quite a far distance to get here, no matter what even though all of those things are for the better. And they're meant to help the dog have a good life moving forward. Those are really traumatic for the dog. Unfortunately, we can't just explain to them, you know what's going on. And Hey, kiddo, I know this is really tough for you right now. But you're going to be okay, we can't do any of that. And so you know, all of that to say, the number one thing people need to really think about when they're welcoming either a newly adopted dog or a foster dog is to go slow, like those two words just go slow. Every dog is an individual. So different dogs are going to respond differently to these situations. So really, really great thing to keep in mind with along the lines of going slow, are sticking to a predictable routine for a little while, offering the dog a safe space to be in where they will not be bothered by anybody, have kids, adults, other pets in the house, etc. And to really just keep things quiet, I think that we're in a really big rush to let them know how much we care about them and how safe they are and how we can give them all these good experiences. But they don't know that right? And there's plenty of time to introduce them to all of these brand new things. So the biggest thing is just give them some predictability and take it really, really slow, and let them come out of their shell at their own pace.
Libby 12:01
I love this so much. And it's totally referencing back to our interview with Patricia McConnell, this idea that decompression as a management strategy is so key for a new foster or a new rescue dog.
Mary 12:17
Definitely. And the other thing I want to say is to you have mentioned this a little bit before, and we mentioned it earlier in our podcasts, but it's also a lifesaver for foster dogs. So not only does management and quote unquote, keeping them out of trouble, helped make them more adoptable. But it's it really is just a lifesaver. I think the other thing to keep in mind is you know, as much as I love when people want to adopt, and they want to rescue, it's wonderful. I love it, it's really great. But I do think just in general, most people when they're looking for a new dog, they don't they don't know any of the selections of dogs that they're looking at, right? They're they're looking for maybe a certain type, or they like to go hiking or they're active or whatever. But I do think that in general, most people aren't, you know, you don't see a dogs description that fits somebody, even if it was a really terrible situation that set the dog up to do poorly. Anybody who sees that generally, they're not looking for that when they're looking for a new dog, which is completely understandable. But I do think that, you know, I hate to put the pressure on. But with a new foster, your job is to keep them safe, and to keep them from making mistakes so they can get into a home more easily.
Emily 13:32
That is such good information. And I think that the general population doesn't understand that, like you were saying, a dog who makes that split second decision that the man coming home at 10 o'clock at night, in the dark, you know, in a new home is actually you know, your son who was away at college bites the sun, that is often a deal breaker for that dog's life like gets returned to the shelter returned to the rescue, and is no longer rehome bubble because they have bitten so for management just to be clear for people who don't really know what that term means you would say like baby gates, like no X pens, could you go into that a little bit?
Mary 14:17
Yeah, um, so in terms of quote unquote controlling a dog's environment to keep them successful. Definitely, that may involve baby gates, having your dog leash in certain scenarios. If we want to get really serious there are definitely some dogs that I work with who have done some damage to other animals or to people and those kiddos we work on training a whole bunch and they wear a muzzle when they're out and about just to keep everybody safe just in case. So management definitely is about those kinds of physical Prevention's at times as much as possible. And I think you know, just to keep it light as well. Back to the counter surfing. It could also be something as simple as not leaving steak on the counter that you're not looking after.
Libby 15:03
We all the time, we get applications who say that counter surfing is a deal breaker behavior for them. And it's kind of funny to me because it's pretty easy to prevent. You know, you can, you can block off your kitchen, you can not leave things out, it's if we can prevent our foster dogs from learning that oh my gosh, counter surfing is amazing because I just got a giant steak. It just makes them that much easier to place in a forever home.
Emily 15:34
That's so interesting, because actually a week ago, our foster dog Loki was in a weakened Foster and they put some wild salmon on the countertop to thaw. And he got it so so he enjoyed his beautiful Alaskan wild salmon. They were like, where's the salmon, we thought we put it out. So you know back to that like preventing them from rehearsing or practicing, you know, speaking a little bit more to that, like anything that they're successful at that behavior will show up more. So, you know, inadvertently he was trained with like a huge jackpot to counter surf. That's gonna take a while to undo.
Mary 16:20
Exactly. And, you know, I'll be honest with you guys, I am a trainer and I live with my partner and he's very very good with dogs too. And he's probably heard more than he ever wanted to know about to dog training and behavior. But we I think it was a year ago. I was off to play a soccer game. We had made these really fancy homemade quiches really expensive ingredients, all the stuff, he my boyfriend left them on the counter to cool. And I was like, Don't forget about the gate because we have a gate up my dog loves food, he will totally counter serve, and I can't blame him for that he's a dog right? There's good stuff up there and he's gonna get it. We and by we I mean my maybe my partner, he forgot to put the gate up, went downstairs was carried away doing something else and the quiches disappeared. So. So what happens to everybody? And that is the thing about management is that you have to get yourself in the routine of practicing it, it may be a little bit of a bummer at first with adjusting your behavior as a human but once you get used to doing it, it's it just becomes habit. So that has not since happened. That was a pretty big Punisher for us to lose our quiches.
Emily 17:30
Right. I love that story. Because it's true. Like even though we're saying management management, like we all have our lapses like, don't feel terrible. If you left, the key show like it happens, yes, you did just train your dog to get up on the counter and just be more compassionate with the dog when you see them putting their nose up there, because we know that they just got a big reward the week before for doing that.
Libby 17:52
So with some behavior concerns, maybe some of the more serious behavior concerns, management might be a long term thing. And as much as it would be great to think that we can solve a behavior problem entirely and then remove the baby gates and take off the muzzle and unclip the leash. It's not always a realistic. So what are some ways we can make management sustainable for long term use in these cases?
Mary 18:27
Yeah, so I think that's a really great point. Whenever I'm working with clients or with new foster parents, or people who have just taking home a new dog, I often talk to them about like, what is the cost benefit of the situation? Is it worth it to experiment? Generally? The answer to that question is no. And I also asked, Would everyone just be less stressed if we just put management in place? And the answer to that is also generally Yes. So especially when it comes to the more serious behavior issues, I do find that with 99% of my clients, management is actually easier to implement than it is to try to strictly adhere to a very specific training plan. So for example, I mostly do these days work with dogs that are struggling with fear, reactivity, anxiety, I hate to say the word aggression, although aggression, it's got a lot of bad connotations. But aggression is really normal with animals. It's also pretty normal with us, we're also animals as people. But yeah, so that is a large proportion of the dogs that I'm working with these days. So for 99% of those dogs, there is a level of management in place long term for them, and for their guardian, and that's just the way it is. I think that a lot of that is about finding what the balance is for people and what they've got the bandwidth to deal with, and also what their dog has the bandwidth to deal with. So for example, really classic, a lot of dogs that I'm working with are either worried about other dogs Dogs are they're worried about unfamiliar people, that's actually pretty common. I know, it's a really, really hard, quote unquote issue for people and their dogs to deal with. But it is pretty common these days. So for example, if I'm working with a dog who has expressed some discomfort or an unfamiliar people, depending on the level of severity, they might have to go behind a baby gate forever, anytime there's a stranger coming over the house. And that actually ends up being way more comfortable for the dog and for the stranger coming in and for their owner. So really, it's just about trying to help people kind of just lean towards what they can achieve short term, and then getting into the routine of that. And once they're doing it, and their habit becomes routine, then it's just okay for them to do it long term.
Libby 20:49
Something that that this is reminding me of is when you helped Daisy out whenever I was first fostering her, and you came over and had a consultation with Jason and Daisy and I and one of the things that you really impressed upon us was, do whatever we can to keep her from practicing the behavior of barking and lunging at bicycles. And at first I thought, oh, my gosh, there's, I can't do this, I can, I can't do that, for that, you know, that's, that's so hard. I'm not gonna be able to do this forever. And a couple years on now, I have a few places that I love to go with her to hike, where there are no bikes, there are no off leash dogs running up on her. And you know, it's just part of our routine now. And I love those hikes, I love those walks, whenever we can just go out and not stress about it. It's one of my favorite parts of the week. And that's a management strategy of only taking her places where she's not going to lose her mind over a biker coming up on the trail. So, you know, for us, while we are always working on the training around bikes, it's it's nice to just have that relief. And, you know, know that we don't have to worry about it. And you know, something else that I think you brought up at that, you know, that consultation was that if Daisy's always in that reactionary state, she can't learn she's over threshold. And so doing whatever we can to manage her environment and keep her under a threshold is the only way she's going to be able to learn.
Mary 22:40
Yeah, and so along those lines to be more specific, I think that's a great example. A lot of it too, is just troubleshooting with people. So this might be up to a trainer or a foster coordinator, or whoever, just troubleshooting what people can achieve. So definitely, I sometimes will have people who have leash reactive kiddos, I'll have them draw, I'm like, Hey, so on a scale of one to 10 how stressed are you 10 Being extremely stressed in your neighborhood walking your dog or how busy is your neighborhood? And if their answer is eight, nine or 10, then I'm instructing them to please go drive somewhere like pop your dog in the car and drive them somewhere that's a little bit less stressful. There's a dog that I've been working with for a little while she's got a she's got a lot of stuff going on. She was rescued at a very young age, she's only eight weeks, she was only eight weeks old when her people took her home. She's a year and a half, two years now. And they drive her to an industrial park because their apartment complex is too busy. So they would literally walk from their house downstairs to their garage sticker in the car, they have blackout curtains on their windows, they driver to a park that there is never anybody at and it is way less stressful for not just the dog but also for them. And they're happy with it and they're comfortable doing it now, to them that outweighs you know, the convenience of walking in the neighborhood when there are a ton of people and dogs around and they everybody just has a hard time.
Libby 24:06
So, Mary when we're talking about a new foster dog and some management strategies, what would you recommend if there are other pets in the house and kids in the house?
Mary 24:19
Yeah, so for the most part, unless it is a dog that has a very, very clear, very positive history with other animals and with kids. I make a pretty sweeping rule with all new dogs, whether they're Foster's or new newly adopted dogs to manage them really, really heavily for at least a few weeks. Honestly also, even if the dog that you're taking home with you that you're fostering or that you're adopting does have a good history with kiddos are with other pets. That dog does not know if your kids and I don't know your other pets. So regardless, I think having a general rule of being really strict with your management around on kids and other pets at first is essential. So what would that look like? A really, really big one is around resources. So food, toys, sometimes even water bowls, food would also account for human mealtimes as well. So as a general rule, anytime anybody tells me that they just got a dog that they're that they adopted or that they're fostering, I always will have people recommend that people separate their new foster new adopted newly adopted dog from other members of the household while they're eating while they're chewing on something really delicious. While they're resting even. So all of those situations, I know that can be really hard for people to manage at first. So that's where our baby gates would come into play or closed doors. I have a family that I'm working with right now who just adopted a dog and their two dogs, they have a newly adopted dog and a current resident dog. They're both this is what the family wanted to do. Both of the dogs are on leash ones with mom and one's with dad, and they're across the table from each other, like six plus feet away while they're eating meals. And the dogs won't tolerate being in a space by themselves when their family is eating dinner. So this is what their solution is. And it's working for everybody. But just really keeping that separation there. So there is no conflict over food, or there's no conflict over other resources. I think the other one with young kids, that can get really tough. We I love it when families want to adopt a dog and they want their young kiddos to be involved in the caretaking of their dog and all that great stuff. I think a big one is helping kids learn healthy boundaries around the dog. So part of that management might look like again, hey, let's leave fluffy alone while she's eating her dinner, her breakfast, no one's gonna go near we're gonna leave her alone Tiller bowls empty. And another big one that people don't often look at. And this is not just apply for children, but it's for the adults as well. Is Does your dog feel like being petted right now? That's a really big one. I think again, you know, there are all different levels of stress that dogs are dealing with when they're getting into a new home no matter where they're coming from. And so we love dogs, right? You you adopt a dog or you get a dog because you like dogs. And so what's the number one thing you want to do you want to pet them, you want to hang out with them, you want to be close to them. But sometimes they need just need some time to figure out that you are safe to snuggle with. And so a lot of that is about, hey, I'm going to call you to me, if you don't want to come over here for pets, I'm not going to pet you. If you come over here and I start petting you under the chin or on the shoulder. Those are the polite ways to pet a dog, I might pause after I do that for a couple of seconds and see see what you do right? If I'm petting you, and you keep leaning in and you're laying on top of me for petting, great, I'm gonna keep petting you. But if you kind of leave you wander away, or you're leaning away from me when I'm trying to pet you, that's a really, really big sign. Hey, all right, no big deal, I'm just going to give you a little bit of space. And so that's a big one that I think people should be working on with their kiddos is whether or not your dog feels like interacting.
Libby 28:09
I love that. And it's so important. And it also helps build trust with that dog that you're going to pay attention to their signals. And if you just give them that space, it still, they might be more likely in the future to want to snuggle because they know that, okay, it's no big deal. If I'm done, I can get up, I can walk away. And they'll let me.
Mary 28:31
So yeah, for sure. I think a big part of that, again, is about giving them choices. And when we take away their choices, that's where we're getting into those tricky situations where a dog is feeling like they might need to bite, or to lunge or to snap. So the more choices that we can give them, not just within Richmond, but whether or not they want to engage in a certain activity with you is really, really important to look at.
Emily 28:52
I love that. It's so interesting. I'm thinking about this while you're talking and I guess there's kind of two layers that we're discussing about with management. There's like the initial management when you bring your dog home, and then you're slowly assessing like in the most like small increments possible, like what can my dog handle, without them, like really having an over threshold freaked out moment. And then it seems like some of these dogs, you know, it's good to calibrate people's expectations that, you know, they might not be able to go to brew pubs, they might not be able to walk on these busy trails with tons of dogs on leash, and then to know that they're not failures as dog guardians, if they put some management in that it's actually something that we as trainers highly recommend, so that your dog can learn. And also, you know, their nervous systems can decompress. And then there's also what you brought up in, I believe, the article with Marc Bekoff, which we can get to in a second trigger stacking, which I think is something that most people don't understand. Do you want to talk a little bit about that?
Mary 30:01
Yeah, so I think that a lot of, I think in general, we just have unrealistic unrealistic expectations of our dogs. That is nobody's fault. I think that things have just been set up such that this is what we expect of them. And I do think with along the lines of management, a lot of it really is about looking at the individual dog you're working with, and figuring out what they can and cannot handle and what their personalities are like. Dogs are not robots, there's not a sweeping statement you can make about all of them, in terms of in those terms. So a lot of it is just about learning about your individual dog, and just resetting those expectations. And a lot of owners that I work with they I tell them, Hey, your kiddo maybe can have some dog friends and do some small playdates, but they don't want to go to the dog park and 99% of the time, people are okay with that. Even my dog, he's, he's great with other dogs. He doesn't have any behavior issues. I specifically did not want to take my work home with me. So I got very lucky. And some trainers helped me at the Humane Society of Boulder Valley with picking him out. And he's a great dog. But yeah, he sometimes resource guards a little bit with dogs. He doesn't know very normal behavior. But if we have a party, do I want to deal with watching the dogs like a hawk to see if somebody accidentally dropped some macaroni on the ground? No. So we just don't have to other dogs come to our house. And that makes it just so much easier. So yeah, I think a lot of it is about just looking at the individual dog and seeing what they can and can't handle and what they do and don't want to do. I know there's definitely a balance there. But that's definitely a big part of it.
Libby 31:43
So yeah, before we jump into the longer conversation about trigger stacking, tell us about working with Dr. Marc Bekoff, because you've been co authoring articles with him. And that's kind of a big deal. So can you tell us how you met him and how you started writing articles with him?
Mary 32:03
Yeah, um, I'm not gonna lie to you guys. He is he's one of my heroes. When I was a child, I was reading books that he wrote, just on his own with other authors and with Jane Goodall. So I was very, very, very excited to meet him. And it's very, it's kind of weird how it worked out. I actually, I don't think I told you guys this, specifically you Emily. But you had asked me for some consulting help with one of your one of your rescue kiddos, one of the dogs that came to your rescue. And funny enough, I was at a console there. Then I met another a trainer who was also kind of working on that case. He and I do not share the same training philosophy. But we decided to meet up for coffee at Mark back offs, a booksigning that he had in Boulder. So we both we met up for coffee there, Mark showed up to do his book signing, it was for his book, unleashing your dog. And while we were there, the trainer I was with was speaking up quite a bit about dog training. And I of course, it was marked back off, right. So I was just like, Oh my God, I am so embarrassed. I don't want to bring attention to myself. And you know, he, he just ended up talking to us after his book signing. And he asked me if I wanted to meet for coffee. And I was like, Of course I will meet you whenever you want. I'll cancel my schedule. Whenever you want to meet Mark, that sounds great. So we met for coffee. And he was just asking me a little bit more about dog training and working with dog guardians. And we got to talking and he asked if I wanted to write something together. So the very first thing we wrote about was a verses and dog training, which was extremely exciting for me. And since then we've just been collaborating for the last few years. And it's it's really, really fun. And he's a super accessible guy. And he's really, really great to work with.
Libby 33:59
That's so awesome. And what a cool story too
Mary 34:02
yeah, very, very random. And then for anybody who doesn't know, Marc Bekoff, he is he's Professor Emeritus of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology at the University of Colorado Boulder. He's a co founder with Jane Goodall also of ecologists for the Ethical Treatment of Animals. And he's also an ambassador for her roots and shoots program. He is He's amazing. He's won many awards for his scientific research, including a Guggenheim Fellowship. He's published a ton of essays, books, he's edited some encyclopedias, um, he's really just, he's one of the leaders of our time, I think of animal welfare and behavior. And so he's, he's really, really an amazing guy.
Libby 34:53
So okay, let's get back to trigger second what I think we were about to define too. or stalking?
Mary 35:01
Yeah, so trigger snacking is it's a toxic accumulation of stress and a short period of time, that doesn't allow the individual to go back down to their baseline or go back up to their baseline. So this does not just happen to dogs, it happens to people as well, I believe also just if you were looking at scientific research behind it, it's pretty well known and a lot of different mammal species altogether.
Libby 35:29
Wow. So it's like, if I got a bad night's sleep, and then I spilled coffee all over my favorite louse, and then I was running late. And then the final thing would be like I got in a fender bender on the way to work like that would, for me that I would totally be pushed over the edge. So a similar thing can happen to our dogs.
Emily 35:50
And you probably wouldn't respond or there's possibility you wouldn't respond with as much grace, as had only one thing happened because I've personally been trigger stacked. And I've had those moments where I'm like, Wow, I did not show up as my best person there, I was cranky or snapped at somebody. And normally, you would not do that if it was just one incident. But you'd had enough incidents in a short period of time that you just kind of explode or you know, lose your cool.
Mary 36:20
Exactly. And that is exactly what I was going to say. And people, it might look like you screaming at your partner, when you hopefully do not do that on a regular basis, or you cry and it feels really, really out of character for you. Or you get in that fender bender, and the person who's behind you who hit your car, you just scream at them. And you normally wouldn't deal with a situation like that. So for for dogs, it's very common for people to argue when dogs argue we tend to as a species of humans, like have a really hard time with it. Although it's pretty normal. For dogs, what that might look like is really out of character like lunging, or they're barking or growling when they might not normally or even biting. And that's a really big one that we often get really upset about it, which is definitely something to pay attention to. But we can push our dogs any dog really to buy, especially if they're trigger stalking.
Libby 37:15
And that outburst of behavior is like the final straw kind of in its chain of events. So maybe they had a vet appointment in the morning and got a shot. And then they went to the dog park and then a new dog comes over to the house. And then there ends up in some resource guarding or something like that. And it's just like a huge bunch of stressful stuff that all happened in one day. And by the end of it, they kind of lose their cool is that right?
Mary 37:44
Exactly. And the article that I wrote with Mark most recently, that was actually that's a pretty good close example to one of the examples I gave with an actual client and dog of mine. This kiddo is very, very social with dogs. Once in a while Hill guard has food or toys from dogs, he doesn't know very well, but that's really well managed by his people. But he had a rough couple of weeks. This dog he injured his paw. So he was on cage rest for three weeks. He is a purebred butala, but he's a very young high energy dog. He gets off leash five times a week plus with his people usually. So he had three weeks of cage dressed, his paw was painful. He once he came off of cage dressed, he went back out on the trails and a dog went after him. No damage happened to him, but I'm sure it was very scary for him. And especially after just not seeing any other dogs for three weeks. So that all happens. And then really shortly after his people decided to try to give him some dog access with a puppy. And the puppy just busted into their house. There was food and toys all around this dog was the the adult dog was looking a little bit uncomfortable, but they were kind of like well, he does well with dogs. It'll be fine. Let's just see how it goes. And he actually ended up biting this puppy right in the face. And he's never ever ever bitten a dog before. It was crazy for these guardians to see that and they were, you know, of course understandably very, very concerned. And we had to have a really long discussion about hey, your dog has never bitten a dog before if your dog was regularly biting dogs, we'd be having a different conversation. This was something that was out of character for him because he was trigger sacking more likely than not.
Emily 39:30
Yes, it's so interesting and unfortunately people you know, the regular public doesn't understand like how simple management and going slow could prevent something like the I don't know who it was but some trainer calls fine, the four letter F word because people people say you know he was fine and then you know he hit the mailman or he was fine and then he hit the vet and you know, out of the blue So, circling back to that management, it's like, when when you go to the zoo, if you're a zoo goer, you don't They don't just let the rhinos and the hippos and the lions run free and hope that they don't attack people. So going back to your expectations, like we expect our dogs to just go with the flow and be happy with everything, and get over everything immediately, and it can build up and boom, you know, dog bites somebody and that's, that's tough. And going back to that salmon on the countertop, it's the same thing of bite can be very reinforcing for a dog. Because if someone's too close, or the puppies annoying them and they bite it, they learn quickly, that thing pretty much goes away. Wouldn't you agree with that? Mary?
Mary 40:46
Yeah, for sure. Biting although it's done in a different capacity than jumping on the counter for food. Ultimately, if you look at the psychology behind the behavior, yes, it's meant to get some sort of results. Generally, when dogs are biting, it is not for fun, unless they're playing right and not breaking skin biting. But generally, if a dog is upset, biting it is to create space. And if that works for them, you know, it's it can become a part of the repertoire for sure.
Emily 41:15
I love what you said about it's to create space. So that's basically why we put some management in so that they don't have to create space and define their boundaries, we slowly do. Like with a baby gate, or leash, we say, like, let's see how you feel. In this situation, instead of a puppy running up, or a kid running over and kissing them. We have a little bit of management in place and assess slowly, how things are going for our dog.
Libby 41:43
I love this conversation also. Because for me, it's bringing up the idea that management isn't just about while these tools are really important part of management. That's not the whole picture. And like you were saying earlier, Mary, it depends on the individual dog, but management might look like something. Something like Okay, so we went to the vet today. So we're going to wait a couple days to go hike on a busy trail, because I know that vet visit was stressful. And we're gonna let them decompress and come down off of that stress before we put them in another potentially stressful situation.
Mary 42:19
Yeah, exactly. And I think the only thing that becomes tricky. And again, a lot of this is about reading your individual dog, I recently took a a continuing education course, about stress and the power of choice, and the research about how long it takes to fully decompress. It's a little bit confusing. I don't know if we fully know, I don't know, if it's, you know, three days on the.or, four days on the dot, I think largely, it's going to depend a again, on your individual dog, and B, there's still more research being done. The course the course that I just took, actually, they were saying, there's some research papers behind this, I can dig them out. But with some of the dogs that they were working with, with the research they're doing on stress, they were showing that some dogs even need like over a week of time to decompress, even from one single small incident, like going to the vet or like fireworks or things like that.
Libby 43:16
Wow, fascinating. As a trainer, do you have any tips for Foster's or adopters on how to tell if your dog has kind of recovered from a stressful event to you know, be able to manage their environment and avoid trigger stalking?
Mary 43:30
Yeah, I think the number one thing is looking at body language. It's really hard, right? We can't talk to these guys and have conversations with them and ask them how they're doing. But I think the number one thing is being really really good at reading body language. So you can see what those subtle signs of stress are, and prevent any of those overt, quote unquote, outbursts. I think another thing too, that we kind of forget about. Enrichment is like this Hot Topic word that's going around in the dog training world and elsewhere. And yes, enrichment is really important. It's giving your dog's quality outlets for normal behavior, right. So a lot of people look at it from a standpoint of trying to expend energy, but I do think also enrichment just counter acts stress that happens to dogs and to people right same thing for us. So I think you know, just using enrichment to your advantage where you can to help dogs deal with the stressors that they encounter a little bit better. And then also reading their body language so you know exactly how they are doing at any given moment. And then looking at the individual individual dog and just making sure right, well fluffy tends to get a little bit more nervous then you know, then spot does spots really chill spa can handle anything. But fluffy gets really nervous about X, Y and Z. So we just went to the vet and she just went to the groomer. I'm going to keep her quiet and give her some really good low stress enrichment for the next few days and then reevaluate and look at her body language and see how she's doing.
Emily 44:57
Oh gosh, I love that and we are going to do an entire podcast on enrichment. But it's not even planned yet. So can you just give a brief overview of what specifically enrichment is define it and give a couple of ideas of how people could do it?
Mary 45:11
Yeah, so I think that enrichment is really about looking at dog or species specific quality opportunities for them to practice normal behavior. So that brings us back to the behaviors that we often do not like to see in dogs like jumping, chewing, digging, all those behaviors are actually really, really normal dog behaviors. So I encourage people to look at the ways that they can let their dogs practices, behaviors, and outlets that are legal. So again, this is going to depend on your individual dog. And some dogs don't like to play tug. But some dogs love it. Some dogs don't like fetch, some dogs are don't love food quite so much that they would work on a really difficult food puzzle toy, but some do. So I think again, a lot of it is about looking at your individual dog really, really getting to know them. And that's going to help you determine what kind of enrichment you should give them. I think one big thing that I want people to really keep in mind with enrichment is that it's not about you, it's about your dog and what they actually like to do. So for example, I love running, I run a whole bunch, my dog is 10, some 10 year old dogs like to run my dog is not one of them. He only likes to run for very short bursts, if he's chasing a squirrel, or a small animal. Otherwise, going on a run like sure tomorrow, I could take him on a three mile run and make him do it and he would be tired after. But that, to me is not good quality enrichment, because it's not something that he would actually choose. So a lot of it is about looking at the individual and what they actually enjoy doing. One really easy, easy, low hanging piece of fruit for people that does not involve in law, involve a lot of efforts is feeding their dogs out of food puzzle toys, or giving them opportunities to forage for their meals. That's a really, really big one. That's super easy. No, that is not everything. But that is definitely one that I suggest to a lot of people if they're not doing it already. When I'm working with them and their dogs. There is a term what is it? Contrafreeloading? Have you guys heard of that before? Yes,
Emily 47:21
I love that.
Mary 47:22
So not to bore our listeners. But basically, I think that this was done. And this has been done in a lot of different species. And I believe that domestic cats, funnily enough, are the only ones who go against this kind of general grain. But when given the choice to work for your food, or to have it handed to you freely is and this has been shown across the board with a lot of different animals. They all choose to work for their food. I don't know exactly what that function is. The speculation is that there's just something satisfying about going to work and getting a paycheck right for people like working for your money. It's it's a lot of they show this a lot as well with like retirees. So adult human retirees who don't have to work anymore, they still choose to go to work to do something with themselves. Again, speculation, but that's so that's just one really easy, low hanging fruit for people that involves little to no effort is just filling up food puzzle toys for their dogs. If you have a yard and you are willing to do it, just scattering some kibble in your yard for your dog to forage for. So foraging for foods a really easy one. And then the other one that I'm trying to push people towards is just letting their dogs go for like either like sniff fiery walks or decompression walks. And what I mean by that for anybody who doesn't know, I'm just letting them sniff and check stuff out. Like that's actually really huge and helping them relieve stress and giving them some good enrichment.
Emily 48:53
Yes, sniffing is so great for them. And I, I love when I when I'm driving my car, and I see people letting their dogs sniff I want to cheer like Yes, good job. Letting your dog smell.
Libby 49:06
Hey, if I'm short on time, and I know that Daisy needs to get out and just do something, I will, you know, maybe we'll just do a 20 minute walk, but we sniff whatever she wants to sniff and I feel like that's better than walking three miles but like really rushing her along?
Mary 49:24
Yeah, definitely. Definitely. And in that foster guide, that you guys are gonna post there is a just a one pager on enrichment. So it goes into it a little bit more. I mentioned this before, but the food puzzle toys and sniffing are not all inclusive. There's a little bit more on that handout that is also not all inclusive, but it could give some people a little bit of a better idea of some other things to work on.
Emily 49:48
Well, we're just so appreciative of that guide. There's just as we've said, so much misinformation out there. And anyone who fosters or adopts a dog loves dogs like You're bringing them home because they want to do the right thing. And it's difficult to find the right information. And you have such an incredible background and education. And so the free resource of that foster guide and adopter guide is such an invaluable tool. So we're so grateful.
Mary 50:18
Thank you. I mean, I really appreciate you sharing it. And I think that the more good information we can get out there, the better.
Libby 50:24
All right, well, thank you so much, Mary. This was amazing. We covered a lot of really important stuff, and I cannot wait to share this with our listeners.
Mary 50:33
Thank you both. I'm so excited to be on your podcast.
Libby 50:39
Thanks for tuning in. If you liked this episode, don't forget to rate and review. It helps other folks like you find the show. To find out more about our programming and adoptable rescue dogs. You can visit summit dog rescue.org thanks to Mike pesci for the original music and to Alex Lee Ammons and for the love media for graphics production and editing. See you soon on pod to the rescue.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai