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Out of Separation Anxiety and Towards Security with Jenni PfafmanHave you ever dealt with a dog who experienced separation anxiety? Separation anxiety can present in dogs in myriad behaviors, and this can have a major impact not only on the dog but on the humans caring for those dogs.
In this episode, Libby and Emily dig into this issue with Jenni Pfafman. Jenni is a Certified Separation Anxiety Trainer with years of experience working in-person and virtually with dogs who deal with separation anxiety. The conversation opens with a case study about a recent SDR rescue pup, and how Jenni walked Emily through the process of managing - and decreasing - the dog’s separation anxiety. In this episode, they also discuss:
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Episode Transcript
Libby 0:03
Welcome to pod to the rescue a podcast from summit dog rescue in Boulder, Colorado.
Emily 0:08
I'm Emily.
Libby 0:09
And I'm Libby.
Emily 0:10
We're both Professional Dog Trainers with multiple certifications in dog training and behavior. Together, we have more than two decades of experience in dog rescue.
Libby 0:21
We want to share everything we've learned along the way with other folks involved in dog rescue, sheltering, fostering and adoption. And anyone who just loves dogs.
Emily 0:29
Rescuing the dog is just the first step.
Libby 0:32
We're here to help with everything that comes next.
Hello, listeners, and welcome back to pod to the rescue. I'm Libby.
Emily 0:43
And I'm Emily.
Libby 0:44
And today we are bringing you an interview with Jenni Pfafman. She's a certified separation anxiety trainer amongst many other specialties and certifications. And we talked to her today about separation anxiety in the context of a case study of a dog that we recently had in rescue.
Emily 1:03
Yeah, I realized that when we bring home a new dog, it's a big ask for our new adoptive dog or our new foster dog to sometimes just be left home alone after 24 hours or 48 hours in your home. So we reached out to Jenni during this new foster that I had back in May. And this is our conversation about how we worked with adorable little beans to make her feel safe, and to eventually get her to feel safe alone when I would leave the house or even go in the shower.
Libby 1:38
Yeah, and we also discussed not only some specifics about separation anxiety and helping your dog feel comfortable alone, but also the human factor of this conversation. And if you have been rescuing dogs or living with dogs for any length of time, you know that the human factors are a really important piece of the puzzle. And it's something that we don't often talk about that much. 100% Jenni Pfafman lives in Crested Butte, Colorado with her husband Tim their border collie Coyote, also known as chi and their two young cats, truffle and marmalade. Jenny became passionate about learning the most humane methods for helping dogs with behavior problems, after failing to find trustworthy help with Kai when she was a puppy. Since beginning that journey about six years ago, Jenny has completed a BA in psychology as well as several training and behavior related certifications, and is a student at the Virginia Tech master's and applied animal behavior and welfare program. In addition to operating her training and behavior consulting business, elevated dog training, LLC, Jenni co founded and operates a nonprofit organization, the humane alliance of rescue trainers. In her spare time, she and Tim are building a house together, actually building the house. And Jenny also enjoys mountain biking, hiking, splitboarding and occasionally climbing rock and ice. We hope you enjoy this conversation.
Jenni Pfafman, Welcome to pod to the rescue.
Jenni 3:11
Thanks. Thanks for having me.
Libby 3:13
Absolutely. We're excited. You're here.
Emily 3:15
We'll just to jump right in. We have taken quite a long break from recording and partially that's because we have been slightly overwhelmed with family life and stuff like that, but also rescues we've had a couple of, you know, hard months in rescue and one of those being I fostered a little dog named bean and that's how this conversation came to be with Jenni Pfafman is that Bean was a little puppy. She was about four and a half months old and she was living with her family in a shelter. They were all found on a rural road in Arkansas and brought to a really good shelter in Northwest Arkansas. And all four of them were kennel together and and like transported together until the day I picked her up. She was with that family. And when I brought her back to my house, I saw what appeared to be separation distress, like she replaced. Oh, she was with her dog family. So you know, she had this social group of being, you know, with her dog family. And then she got here and she decided I was her new family, which was very normal. But then I live alone and there were times when I needed to be separated from her and it started the first time I took a shower. And I call Jenny in a panic because being was like panicked that I was behind the glass door of shower and she was like crying and scratching at the glass door to the point where I opened the door because I was like I don't want you panicking. And I call Jenni and here Here's our conversation about how I survive being and how do you work with a dog whose entire life has just been put into total upheaval, we have pulled the rug out from underneath them. And now we need them to be alone a little bit. So, Jenni, what did you do? And I called you that morning.
Libby 5:22
I think probably first they told you to take a deep breath. That's usually the best first step when it comes to any issues that we encounter with our restaurant or dogs.
Jenni 5:33
Yeah, it's like it's anything on fire with the fire out? Is anyone bleeding? Stop the bleeding. Take a deep breath.
Emily 5:41
It was you were a godsend because I definitely went into panic mode. Like I will never be able to leave my house again.
Jenni 5:48
Yeah, yeah. And that's quite a scary feeling. And how long had you had Bean with you at that point?
Emily 5:57
I think only like 48 hours at the most. And I had noticed that she like followed me from room to room, her, her whole nervous system seemed to be on high alert. Like, if I moved rooms, she would get up out of any sleep that she was in and follow me if I went out to water the garden. She was upset, but I water the garden for like a minute. It's not, you know, we're in a drought here. So yeah, so but she was very concerned about where it was at all times. Yeah.
Jenni 6:27
So you and I, after that conversation at like fast forwarding a little bit, we saw each other at the resilience rainbow workshop. And that's where I first met being in person and I met you in person for the first time. And we learned there a lot about it, the HPA axis in the brain, and how stress affects that axis and the what's going on in the brain. And at different stages of life, how the stress response response in dogs is maybe stronger than other phases of life. And for every dog, it's different. But we can probably say, with some confidence, and I'm not a neurologist, or a neurobiologist, I have taken classes and read a lot on these subjects. But I want to put that caveat in there. But I think we can say with some confidence that a dog with beings history, as you said, you know, coming into your life, her, her life has been completely unedited, it up ended, she's separated from her family, it's normal, that she is going to want to clean to the person who she now views as her provider of care, and that she wants to trust. And it's really important. You know, I used to think, one of the most. And this is still important, but I think I previously would have said that the priority to a dog of her age coming into the home is socialization, like, right, we all know how important socialization is. But I've really from what I've learned in the last few months, and I've also been reading the stress factor in dogs by Dr. Kristina Spaulding, which anyone who hasn't read that who's interested in stress and dogs should should read that. What I think now is that, depending on the individual, of course, the priority should be on helping the dog feel safe, and doing whatever we can to build the trust account with the dog. And by that I mean, doing things that are predictable, and help the dog feel safe and not pushing them into situations that are scary because their whole brain is, you know, out of out of whack because of stress hormones and the experiences that they're having. And if we continue to compound that, it's only going to get worse over time. So I believe my advice to you after taking a deep breath, and then I started asking some questions like had you know, How long had you had her? Had she been left alone at all? How was she in the crate? You know, and we and then we talked about ways to start to help her feel safe in her new environment and not jumping to a conclusion that oh, she's got separation anxiety, I'm never going to be able to leave her alone or isolation distress. And, you know, just talking about how to prevent things from getting worse and get her on the right track to feeling safe again.
Emily 10:05
Right? That was so helpful because like, even though I know a lot, when you're really in it, just like the dogs, our emotions take over. So having you talk me through it, I was like, okay, okay, breathe. And we're going to take this one day at a time. Now, there were some hard things for my life, taking it one day at a time, like it a lot of ways I saw how this conversation could be so helpful to people because I had to put so much on hold, I had to tell clients, like, I'm not going to be able to see you and getting groceries for became difficult, like, there was that time period of like, making her feel safe and secure, that that impacted my life. And so I think you and I kind of talked about, like, helping everyone, including myself understand, like, how do we put our lives on hold, but also meet some of our needs as a human foster or adopter?
Jenni 11:02
Yeah, and I think it's, it's an important consideration for anyone who's listening who is thinking about bringing a new dog into their home at any age, but particularly, I would say, a dog, a puppy or an adolescent dog, because their brains are in more fragile states. And, you know, considering, are they able to possibly not leave the dog alone at all for at least a week? What do you think?
Emily 11:34
I think if at least a week, if possible. I mean, I guess every dog is different. And I actually, in retrospect, feel like I was a little naive, I had fostered so many puppies. And, you know, I used to have another person living in my house. Like, I think I hadn't really thought about the fact that what was going to be happening when I brought home a four and a half month old puppy, who just you know, all of a sudden, I was just in it. But that's really an interesting concept to think about is like, right, she was in that, you know, late puppy stage before she was an adolescent, her brain was just, you know, on, on full, full tilt.
Jenni 12:14
Yeah. And I think there's, there's a balance between having a period of not leaving them alone at all, to err on the side that they might have a tendency towards being anxious when left alone, to, you know, a week or two great a month probably too long. Because we also want to help them learn to be alone in a way that they feel safe and at a rate that they feel safe.
Libby 12:51
So yeah, Jenni, what's an appropriate way to go about doing that, given that we often have no idea of? What are rescue dogs histories are? How how do you coach? People going through this process of helping their dogs learn to be secure while alone?
Jenni 13:14
That's a great question. And an important question. I think AI. As an example, a real life example, I met with a client virtually this morning, who has recently added a second dog to her home. And the dog has expressed a little bit of anxiety when left alone. So she was worried does he have you know, real true separation anxiety or isolation and distress. So we watched him on video, she it's, it's nice to have a camera, but she just set up her computer in the room where the dog was being left. And we we watched him together while she went outside. And I watched his body language I was talking to her on on Zoom. So while we were watching him, and I was pointing out to her what his body language looked like. At first he was very alert, his his ears were very erect. And he kept looking at the door. But then after a while, he started walking around, he looked out the window a little bit. His tail went from a very high position to more relaxed, his ears started to relax a little bit, his whole body posture seemed to relax and he sat down. And after a while, he was just you know, very, after about five or six minutes, he was relaxed. And we waited until 15 minutes to make sure that he didn't have any kind of panic response always being ready to return immediately into the into the house if he started to show any signs of panic. So some of the key elements there are we were doing. He's been in the home for three weeks now and she's left him just for a couple of minutes at a time, when she wasn't sure how to tell if he was starting to panic or not, she didn't want to risk that. So you can start by learning how to observe or interpret, I guess, canine body language, so that you can recognize signs of stress in there. There's a lot of great information, probably some bad information, too, but some good information on the internet, great videos and infographics and Lily, Lily Chin has doggy language book. And, or you can talk to a professional. But if you have, if you get to the point where you want to try leaving your dog alone, I think it's best to be able to watch them and, and be able to recognize signs of of stress, and be able to recognize whether or not that stress is increasing or decreasing in intensity. So say you've had a dog in your home for two weeks that have been left alone a lot. You're like, you know what they seem like they're getting pretty comfortable in the home. I'm going to try leaving them alone. You can set up a camera first just go if they haven't been away from you at all, which I think was the case for for you, Emily with being I think we just had you like go in the other room right and being wasn't comfortable being created at that point. So we did two things simultaneously. I mean, not not simultaneously, but we did two things as beginning steps. I think we started getting him used to being left just in the room alone for very, very brief periods, right, like so you would just go out of the room, come back in the room, go out of the room, close the door, come back in the room, right. Does that sound familiar? And then with the crate, we started getting him more comfortable being in the crate because you weren't sure? What he would do if left? uncreated. Right.
Emily 17:04
So, actually, so what we what we did was we didn't worry about the crate, she seemed to panic in the crate. And so we just I decided taking crating off the table, since she was having so much trouble even like, having me like go into the bathroom if she was asleep on the bed, which is like five feet away. So yeah, I thought the crate was like middle school.
Jenni 17:31
Yeah. Okay. So I think we just worked on her being able to be in the room alone, and then working towards going outside the house. And in the meantime, you are not leaving her alone at all. So if you had to go somewhere, you arranged for someone to come and stay with her or you brought her with you.
Emily 17:53
Yeah, exactly. So one of the things that I noticed when I was realizing that beam had some separation distress was if I went outside, she was kind of panicky when I got back inside. If I was gone to the car for too long, like getting my wallet, she would sometimes actually poop in the house. And it seemed like that was stress related. So what are the signs that you look for Jenny? Like, how much whimpering and how much distress is okay, you know, like, what do you look for?
Jenni 18:30
Yeah, so I don't know how much of this I've learned just through experience over time, but I feel so to give concrete examples, I would say, you know, if you could put whimpering on a scale of one to 10 and one would be quiet, no whimpering and 10 would be screaming. I'm sure anyone who's been around dogs or puppies long enough, as heard, like really panicked, screaming for a dog who is mildly distressed, mildly stressed, I would say not distressed. I'm not sure what the proper term there is, but mildly uncomfortable. Maybe a three so a little bit of whimpering three to four for less than five minutes and not constant. So a little whimpering and then they're quiet, maybe a little more whimpering and they're quiet. Over the course of a few minutes. They're able to calm down. I would say that would be okay. That I would think that's okay. But if they start out at a three or four, a little whimpering and then that starts to escalate or looking at other that's specifically vocalizing. So and and you If it's constant for more than 15 seconds. Now if it's if it starts escalating, so in addition to looking at the intensity of the vocalization, looking at the trend is it increasing or decreasing. So puppy starts with a little whimpering. And then it gets louder and louder, and then they start barking and whimpering or howling. And then into a full on screen like that should not be happening. And I'm sure there are still places on the internet where you can see, you know, put the puppy in the crate, let them cry it out. That is usually not good advice. And if your puppy is doing a little bit of whimpering in the crate, or not even just a puppy a dog, and you're not sure you can sit next to them and talk softly to them, give them some treats, and see if they calm down. And if they can't calm down, take them out of the crate. For dogs that are left alone or being created, in general, you know, panting the same thing. Maybe a little bit of panting is okay. But if it's constant, or if it's increasing or escalating, that's a sign of distress. Any kind of elimination like you were seeing when you went outside, definitely signs of distress. Pacing can be assigned to and again, it's like does the dog pace slowly, a little bit like the dog I watched today. At first he was kind of walking around quickly in the room. But then after a while, he was like, oh, like every once in a while he'd walk around a little bit. And then he just he just stopped walking. But I've seen dogs who start pacing more quickly, the more agitated and distressed they get to. And then you know looking at the whole whole dog if you're watching the dog either live or on camera, not just one signal. You've all heard like, oh, the dog's tail was wagging right before they bit me. But if you look at the whole dog, and so are they vocalizing and pasting and panting and you know, possibly eliminating those are signs of a really a really distressed dog.
Emily 22:21
And I do think one thing that my friend said that I thought makes so much sense is you have to go slow to go fast. Yes. And really that's what happened with bean was like everything had to go on pause, it was like I can't go out to eat, I can't really go to the grocery store. Everything is just on pause while we get her settled in. And then as she started to have that grounding feeling and her little nervous system started to relax, then we could add some things in so it was this slow, but very successful process. And I do have to mention that about three weeks in I did contact our veterinarian and she did get some situational meds to to help with a little bit of that.
Jenni 23:05
Okay, yeah. And that's, uh, can you tell people kind of what led you to, to that decision?
Emily 23:15
Um, you know, I was kind of wanting to make sure even you know, though, I'm, you know, kind of identify as like a natural, free loving hippie who doesn't love to, you know, put pharmaceuticals in anybody if they are not warranted. I saw that the risk of having her have any panic was too great. Like better to err on the side of caution and have her basically have like what, you know, in my mind would be like a glass of wine to relax more so that I could do a few things. Like I had a friend sister came to town and we were gonna go to dinner. And so I watched her on the camera. She did vocalize this was like four weeks, and she vocalized for like, two minutes. And then she went and slept on her ottoman. And I was like, Oh, thank God, you know. And one thing that I have to say was that I made a puppy proofed a room for her and I felt like that really helped as opposed to going for that crate. So many people were like, try crate training and the crate just seemed like that was like an exercise that was going to just be terribly hard for her. So I puppy proofed a room and I had the camera and I just watched so probably my cortisol was elevated, you know a bit to be like, Oh my god, what is she doing? But it was so rewarding to be like, okay, she is settling. And she's resting.
Jenni 24:43
Yeah, yeah. And I think it's important to maybe clarify a little bit what you mean when you say puppy proofing a room. So it it might be clear to everybody but I have Yeah, I when I hear that. I think you made the rooms safe. So the safest? Yes. So the reason to create a dog is for safety, not to keep them from being destructive. Because if a dog is destructive, you need to ask yourself why or ask a professional to help you figure out why. And the solution is not to put them in a crate where they might hurt themselves trying to get out. Or, you know, people sometimes turn to these indestructible crates, when that just ends up, exacerbating the stress that the dog is feeling because they're, they still have all the, you know, internal distress, and now they're trapped in a very small space. So I love that you, you know, just you make the room as safe as possible. Or you can block off access to two rooms in the house, a lot of times, dogs do better in the room that the person leaves from, so where they can see the front door. And so instead of, you know, locking them in the bedroom, they might be better off in the living room with all the other doors closed, so they don't have access to the entire house. So thinking of limiting access to certain areas, rather than confining the dog.
Emily 26:34
Right. That's what we did it. It's funny. Now I'm remembering. I also played Jackson Browne a lot during the day, you know, and then when I would leave, I would leave Jackson Browne on. And she had the whole living room so she could see the front door, I unplugged as much as I could on plug, I had to keep the camera plugged in. Just you know, I worried about chewing a cord, that would be terrible. So unplugged my TV and those things. And then I had the kitchen, blocked off with a gate, and then the stairs blocked off in my office closed. So she basically had this big room. She did have my other dog there who I think maybe brought her some comfort. And that was something Libby wanted to chat about too was like, how much comfort does another dog provide? Or is that just case by case?
Libby 27:24
Yeah, I'm interested in like the canine sibling dynamic. And whether that's helpful. Can some dogs get too reliant on their canine siblings? And then are you creating a more another issue? What are your thoughts
Jenni 27:39
on that? Yeah, and I was just going to ask Emily, if her other dogs presence was helpful to be in or not. It's case by case some dogs do better with another dog present. What we do know is dogs that are anxious being left alone that that have like clinical separation anxiety, or isolation distress, they are rarely helped by the addition of another dog. But there are some instances I'm aware of where dogs, you know, if they're really bonded with another dog, then they are not as comfortable being left alone without that other dog present. So for sure, in some cases, it's helpful for dogs but not in all cases.
Libby 28:27
Is it possible for dogs to experience separation anxiety from each other? I mean, is that is that a thing? Some dogs experience?
Jenni 28:38
I believe so. Yeah, I think so. And just, you know, just the same as they can experience separation anxiety from a particular person. So some dogs are so attached to one person that they can't be left with another person. And one of the most difficult parts of helping a dog with separation anxiety is suspending absences. That's like, completely mandatory. So if a dog is so attached to one person, the first step is not necessarily to just start working on leaving them alone, but also to help them expand their circle of trust to other people to make it easier for the person that they're strongly attached to.
Libby 29:41
Yeah, it's so often with our dogs. I think we get these multi layered issues that we need to tackle them. It's so so tough to tease out what do we address first?
Jenni 29:58
Yeah, and I think That depends upon the quality of life of everyone involved. So what is causing the greatest disruption? And frustration to everyone? Because it, sometimes you can tackle multiple issues with one solution, but not always. So. And I think you both know that, and probably a lot of listeners know that behavior isn't isolated, no behavior is isolated, right. So everything is everything affects everything else, I think. So if you, for example, Bing, now she has different name, but I'm not sure if I'm supposed to say it. So anyway, she now she's comfortable in a crate, she, she can be left alone. She has some, you know, normal, like puppy behaviors that were much worse when she first entered the home. And her family. I spoke to them yesterday or the day before. And they said, after a few weeks, it was suddenly like, something clicked and she you know, she's starting to feel more safe. And they're seeing not just the behaviors that they've been specifically working on improve. But overall, her her behavior is starting to improve.
Emily 31:29
Oh, that's so interesting, right, we should let listeners know that your virtual trainer. So that's interesting, I haven't actually connected with them very much. And so that's great, you actually have seen the whole story, the beginning to the current
Jenni 31:43
Yeah, and one of one of the other SDR dogs also I'm working with virtually and they same thing, they both, both of the young dogs have been in their new homes for about the same amount of time. I think it's been about a month, three weeks or a month. And both of them are seeing like, suddenly an improvement in overall behavior. Even though they've they've been specifically targeting like the most problematic behaviors. But everything is improving.
Libby 32:21
So Jenni, these dogs who are experiencing a big shift in their behavior after about a month, how much of that is just an overall reduction in their stress level. And this decompression process that we talked about a lot kind of going back to what you're saying about stress and cortisol levels at the beginning of our conversation. Do you think that that has an impact?
Jenni 32:47
I definitely think that has something to do with it. Although I don't know, specifics, and I'm sure it's different for every dog. But absolutely, you know, even after one stressful event, say a dog has been in a family for two years, and there's a really stressful event or they move to a different house or you know, something a huge change in their environment, it can take them time to to readjust. And for their kind of their baseline stress level to be lowered.
Emily 33:23
It's so interesting to hear that because that was, you know, really my experience with being was that the first three weeks were hard, her nervous system was hijacked. And then, you know, the second two weeks, I felt like we were in a groove, smooth sailing, you know, then we started working more on potty training, kind of like teasing out like what's the priority for me and was like, I mean, I was working on potty training, but but it wasn't my priority because her nervous system was so hijacked, you know, and it was raining nonstop here. So yeah. So it's just interesting to hear that and I mean, Patricia McConnell's three weeks, three months, three, three weeks. I got that wrong. Yeah, it does sometimes really like ding ding ding like it does seem to have really rang true.
Jenni 34:13
Yeah, I was contacted by a family once who had driven from Colorado to like it was like Virginia or something to get a dog that they found on the internet. They brought the dog back to Colorado and within the first two days that they had the dog, they immediately put it in with their other dog within the first two or three days the dog bit their dog, another dog and a person and they were going to put it down. And they they actually they they called me saying do you think we need to put this dog down and I asked them you know we talked about safety and giving A dog some time, we brought a veterinarian into the conversation. And I met with them a few days after that phone call, and as, as far as I know, they never had another issue and they still have the dog. So that just and I think a big part of the of that dog's behavior initially, was the response to all the stress, you know, we talk about changing behavior, and starting in a low distracting environment, anytime we want to teach a dog or a person, for that matter a new skill, we need to also consider the internal state. So it was really smart view, Emily to realize, you know, I need to, I need to help this dog feel safe, before I can start working on other things. And then we have management strategies for things that we need to put on hold, right. So if, if a dog is not getting along with the new with another dog in the home, for example, that keeping them separate, while the dog, the new dogs settles in, gives, give them time to get used to their new environment and their new home, and then work on integrating the other dog and building a relationship between them.
Emily 36:25
Yeah, that's so interesting. I'm thinking back now not to harp too much on Bean but I picked her up actually in Kansas City. And she was just this little thing, and she couldn't even potty on the grass, like when I pulled her, you know, pulled off the highway, put her down on the ground, she would just stay on there frozen, like she, you know, so I put some potty pads in the back of the car, and just was like, this is just what we're gonna do for safety, because you can't be you know, so everything for her was so new, like, she'd never had a harness on before. She'd never been inside a home as far as I could tell. I mean, we don't know. But stairs, she didn't know how to do stairs and the icemaker, like just everything was so new. And then I was like, I have to go to the grocery store. So that's, you know, it's, it's like we have our needs, and then you have to just like take a step back. And that's why you were so helpful. Because I was like, Okay, you're right, like, remind ourselves, we have to remind ourselves what they've been through. And then just breathe. I think breathing and trying to empathize with them is really helpful for the human.
Jenni 37:38
Yeah, and reminding them that it's not forever. So you know, when I told you, you can't leave her alone, that's not forever. And if strategies aren't working to help her feel better being left alone, then talking to a veterinarian about using medication, possibly, or looking for medical, medical issues that might be contributing to, to their stress, and there any behavioral issues. So recently, I worked with another dog has done a foster home, who suddenly started resource guarding. And he had been in the home for six weeks with no problems, and then start resource guarding food and toys from the other dog. And we quickly figured out that the behavior change coincided with an ear infection. And the dog also has GI issues. So rather than jumping into a bunch of training, let's get the ear infection, feed the dog separately, don't have toys in the room, get the ear infection under control, which they had already seen about and it was being treated. And then I had a follow up with them. So there's a week after our first conversation, and they the they're still keeping the dog separate, but they said the dog is happier, the dogs are playing together better. As far as they they feel pretty comfortable. We haven't done it yet. But they think that guarding issue will probably be resolved just by the fact that the dog isn't in pain anymore.
Libby 39:36
And this brings up a question that Emily and I have discussed, which is you know, sometimes you do have to take a break from training, whether it's separation anxiety or resource guarding or whatever, you need to take a break to get some meds on board take care of a medical issue. You know, see the behavior that when we're talking specifically about separation anxiety, are you going If you have to take a break like that, you're gonna lose progress. How do you pick it back up when it's time to start that specific training again?
Jenni 40:09
Yeah, that's a good question and breaks in the answer. The short answer is it's going to depend on on every dog sometimes breaks. Like you're saying less is more slowest fast. Sometimes breaks can accelerate progress. Usually. So for example, if I was working with a separation anxiety dog, and the progress seemed to be stagnated, and the family decided they wanted to talk to the vet about starting some type of daily behavior Med, is this kind of maybe a situation that you're thinking of? So we might, depending on the medication and the better veterinarians recommendations, if it's something that might take a little while to kick in, we might say, Okay, let's take a two week break. During the break. We're not leaving the dog alone. And, and then, after we think the medication is maybe starting to take effect, then we'll pick up again, you could continue with the training missions. Why while you're waiting for the medication to take effect, but my recommendation is usually that if we think the medication is going to help, let's wait until it's kicked in to pick up again, so that I don't want to be wasting people's time and money. If we feel like we could be doing something better, let's do it better, and take a break until we can be doing it better.
Libby 41:39
Right? So in that time, that might mean using strategies like hiring the dog sitter, getting grocery pickup taking the dog with you, if you can't if it's safe, is things like that.
Jenni 41:53
Yes. Yep. And are having you know, family members, there are a lot of I went through Malena DeMartini's CSAT course last year. And there's so many creative strategies people came up with, you know, so if you know someone with a college student who just wants a quiet place to study and likes dogs, like they can come over to your to your house, there are Facebook groups, and different communities of families that are all going through this at the same time, and they can help each other out. Some of the rescues that I work with, have volunteers that will come and sit with the dog if someone is fostering a dog that has separate separation anxiety. I don't know. Just some dog rescue yet. You're still small. But
Emily 42:44
do actually a few years ago, we had a dog named Boomer and same situation, he came from a shelter in Eagle County and when his people need to his foster is needed to go to like a medical appointment or you know, anything, we would go and sit there was like three or four different people who went and sat with Boomer.
Jenni 43:04
Yeah, I think it's really valuable if you're able to help people out like that, because it's a big ask, especially if you know, a dog can't be left alone, it's probably pretty hard to find someone to foster them.
Libby 43:18
Yeah, so for rescues who are struggling with a dog in your rescue, who has separation anxiety that's like, that can be a tool in your toolbox, you know, get a crew of volunteers. And that's kind of the easiest rescue job in the world, just like going out with a dog for an hour and watch, you should watch an episode on Netflix or something like that.
Emily 43:40
Yeah, you're making me realize that we should proactively have that support system in place. And rescuers should consider doing that just, you know, asking for a couple of volunteers that we train, who could be that team, you know, who just comes in for that initial like, regardless of how the dog behaves? In the beginning, just not asking that dog to be home alone for too long, because it's such a tough ask for them to come into a new home and then be alone.
Jenni 44:09
Yeah, yeah. And you could, it'd be interesting to see what kind of a response you could get from just your general community. You know, who, because I'm sure there are people that can't have a dog for a number of reasons, but love dogs and would love nothing more to just go sit with a puppy, you know, any dog for an afternoon? Like I would do that?
Emily 44:36
Yeah, yeah. Now that sounds like a really good thing that we need to in our big planning. We're trying to do some really big planning and the rescue right now. So that's gonna go on the list.
Jenni 44:47
So if anyone's listening
Libby 44:53
so I would love to circle back a little bit to the topic of crating, which we've mentioned Need a few times, but I think there's probably more to say about it. And one big factor when it comes to the to crate or not to crate question is that a lot of our rescue dogs have just come off transport. And transport can be super scary. And they are in a crate. In it's probably loud. They're probably other dogs highly stressful environment. And we often find like, they are not going back in that great. No way no how. And so for those dogs, like Emily mentioned, you know, a great option is to copy proof of room or Jenny, like you said, like clothes off all the other rooms in the house. But I'd love to talk a little bit more about creating and how that plays into this conversation.
Jenni 45:49
Yeah, so you bring up some really good points about why dogs might be hesitant to go into a crate, especially if they're coming from into a rescue or from a shelter. And I think it's, it's a different situation. That is a different situation than taking a dog who's never been in a crate and playing games and teaching them to enjoy the crate. So one is maybe desensitization and just conditioning the crate to be a fun, comfortable place. And the other involves counter conditioning. So not just building a positive association with the crate, but removing the negative association. And it's very important not to force a dog into a crate. And there are some, even with dogs who have never been created, you know, they might be upset if you just put them in a crate and close the door. And a lot of puppies will whimper a little bit and then settle down, some puppies will actually panic. So for dogs who have a bad association with a crate, first, you know, ask Do they need to be created, if you feel like they do, is there some other way to accomplish what you feel is necessary, which is kind of what we talked about before keeping them safe, keeping your home safe. And you know, there are other alternatives like using baby gates and X pens that provide some of the same safety features of creating a dog without actually putting them in the crate. Then to get them comfortable with the crate, I would first get something that's different from the crate, if you have any information about the crate they used before, as different as possible from that crate. And maybe even start with an X pen. And you could do things like Teach them to relax on a mat, just in a room, and then teach them relax on the mat in the X pen. And then try putting the mat in front of a crate and teach them play you know, there are games you can play to teach them to relax on the mat in front of the in front of the crate. And then maybe the mat is halfway in the crate and halfway out of the crate. And then we try sometimes in the crate and out of the crate. And always associating the crate with really good positive experience watching their body language. You can do things like work on other fun behaviors that you might want to be teaching the dog that don't have any history with the dogs. So just you know, you might want to start to like sit and lay down or go on a mat or something and then have the crate there while you're doing these fun things. But you're not even interacting with the crate. And then after a couple of days, maybe start having the dog just go into the crate to get a treat and then they come right back out. I think it's if you have a dog who is very fearful of a crate, and it's and you think it's important to teach them to be comfortable with the crate. I think it's worth hiring a professional to help you baby because if you do it right. I think there can be a high rate of success and if you do it poorly then it can be really hard to undo any damage. Yeah.
Libby 49:45
Like so many things in doctrine.
Jenni 49:48
Yeah, yeah.
Emily 49:51
And life. Yeah.
Jenni 49:55
Yeah, you know, I just can't I can't To emphasize enough what Emily said earlier about slow is fast, it's so much better. You know, I was talking to someone recently about nail trims. And I do the same approach like we're playing games we're doing, you know, hand target and sit and lie down and rollover. And now I'm going to, you know, just touch your paw. And maybe now I'm going to touch your paw and hold up the trimmers. And then I go back to doing some other fun things, replay, you know, a little bit of tug or something. And occasionally, I bring in this other thing, so it's not a big deal, it's not like, now we're going to learn how to trim all of your nails, then then the dog is afraid of the nail trimmer, and they never want to go near it again, rather than even my own dog, she's seven, I have never trimmed all of her nails on all her paws in one sitting, she's, she will let me she will Let me trim up a few of her nails without any issue. But if I push it too far, I can see the look on her face. And I would rather not have that look on her face, I would rather just do a couple of nails. And then later in the day, we do a couple more than make it a stressful situation for everyone.
Emily 51:17
So interesting. I'm listening to this. And I'm thinking about Patricia McConnell's book, the other end of the leash. And I think so much of this is human coaching. And it was just so interesting to be the human being coached as to like, go slow, you know, like we, we tend to have a lot of expectations and a desire to go fast. And so it is a lot about the human end of the leash, as well.
Jenni 51:44
Yeah, and I think as, as professionals, we also feel like we should we should be able to figure it all out. Yeah, like we should, we should know better, I hired someone to help me actually shots or Monaco to rally. She helped me tremendously with some of the handling. I don't like to use the word issues all the time, but helping my dog be more comfortable with vaccines and with nail trims. And, you know, I I realized, like you're saying sometimes you're, you're too close, you're too close. And I think we put more pressure on ourselves than we put on other people. So if we were able to backup and treat ourselves like, like one of our clients, we'd have more success. But for some reason, that's not very easy to do.
Libby 52:43
I can relate so much to that. I hit a big wall with training Daisy, and working with her bikery activity. And I called Marisa Martino and I said I don't know if all these things in a candidate, and it's overwhelming and I can't do it. And it was just so valuable to have Marissa is help. And she came over for a session and like that was the breakthrough that we needed to to continue on, on this training path. So yeah, I really, really relate to this.
Jenni 53:22
Yeah, I think it's important for all of us to be able to give ourselves the grace to ask for help when we need it. And it doesn't mean that we aren't capable means that we're, we're human, and we need each other.
Emily 53:45
Oh my god. Well, that's such a great place to wrap up. And I'll always be grateful that you answered that phone while I was like sitting there and my towel after my shower going. I'm tired. And I don't know what to do. And I can't help this dog for the next 14 years.
Jenni 54:02
Yeah, well, I'm glad you called. And I'm glad I was able to help. And now Bean has a wonderful, happy home. And yeah, all thanks to your patience and your willingness to ask for help.
Libby 54:18
Awesome. Well, Jenni Pfafman, thank you so much for your time. We really appreciate appreciate you and it was a great conversation. So thank you.
Jenni 54:28
Thanks. So enjoyed it very much. Thanks for having me on the podcast.
Libby 54:35
Thanks for tuning in. If you liked this episode, don't forget to rate and review and helps other folks like you find the show. Thanks to Mike pesci for the original music and James Eid have be heard for production. For show notes and transcripts visit pod to the rescue.com Let us know what you think about this episode on social media or at pod to the rescue on Facebook and Instagram and we love connect Talking with listeners we'll catch you next time on cod to the rescue oh and tell your dog we said hi
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Welcome to pod to the rescue a podcast from summit dog rescue in Boulder, Colorado.
Emily 0:08
I'm Emily.
Libby 0:09
And I'm Libby.
Emily 0:10
We're both Professional Dog Trainers with multiple certifications in dog training and behavior. Together, we have more than two decades of experience in dog rescue.
Libby 0:21
We want to share everything we've learned along the way with other folks involved in dog rescue, sheltering, fostering and adoption. And anyone who just loves dogs.
Emily 0:29
Rescuing the dog is just the first step.
Libby 0:32
We're here to help with everything that comes next.
Hello, listeners, and welcome back to pod to the rescue. I'm Libby.
Emily 0:43
And I'm Emily.
Libby 0:44
And today we are bringing you an interview with Jenni Pfafman. She's a certified separation anxiety trainer amongst many other specialties and certifications. And we talked to her today about separation anxiety in the context of a case study of a dog that we recently had in rescue.
Emily 1:03
Yeah, I realized that when we bring home a new dog, it's a big ask for our new adoptive dog or our new foster dog to sometimes just be left home alone after 24 hours or 48 hours in your home. So we reached out to Jenni during this new foster that I had back in May. And this is our conversation about how we worked with adorable little beans to make her feel safe, and to eventually get her to feel safe alone when I would leave the house or even go in the shower.
Libby 1:38
Yeah, and we also discussed not only some specifics about separation anxiety and helping your dog feel comfortable alone, but also the human factor of this conversation. And if you have been rescuing dogs or living with dogs for any length of time, you know that the human factors are a really important piece of the puzzle. And it's something that we don't often talk about that much. 100% Jenni Pfafman lives in Crested Butte, Colorado with her husband Tim their border collie Coyote, also known as chi and their two young cats, truffle and marmalade. Jenny became passionate about learning the most humane methods for helping dogs with behavior problems, after failing to find trustworthy help with Kai when she was a puppy. Since beginning that journey about six years ago, Jenny has completed a BA in psychology as well as several training and behavior related certifications, and is a student at the Virginia Tech master's and applied animal behavior and welfare program. In addition to operating her training and behavior consulting business, elevated dog training, LLC, Jenni co founded and operates a nonprofit organization, the humane alliance of rescue trainers. In her spare time, she and Tim are building a house together, actually building the house. And Jenny also enjoys mountain biking, hiking, splitboarding and occasionally climbing rock and ice. We hope you enjoy this conversation.
Jenni Pfafman, Welcome to pod to the rescue.
Jenni 3:11
Thanks. Thanks for having me.
Libby 3:13
Absolutely. We're excited. You're here.
Emily 3:15
We'll just to jump right in. We have taken quite a long break from recording and partially that's because we have been slightly overwhelmed with family life and stuff like that, but also rescues we've had a couple of, you know, hard months in rescue and one of those being I fostered a little dog named bean and that's how this conversation came to be with Jenni Pfafman is that Bean was a little puppy. She was about four and a half months old and she was living with her family in a shelter. They were all found on a rural road in Arkansas and brought to a really good shelter in Northwest Arkansas. And all four of them were kennel together and and like transported together until the day I picked her up. She was with that family. And when I brought her back to my house, I saw what appeared to be separation distress, like she replaced. Oh, she was with her dog family. So you know, she had this social group of being, you know, with her dog family. And then she got here and she decided I was her new family, which was very normal. But then I live alone and there were times when I needed to be separated from her and it started the first time I took a shower. And I call Jenny in a panic because being was like panicked that I was behind the glass door of shower and she was like crying and scratching at the glass door to the point where I opened the door because I was like I don't want you panicking. And I call Jenni and here Here's our conversation about how I survive being and how do you work with a dog whose entire life has just been put into total upheaval, we have pulled the rug out from underneath them. And now we need them to be alone a little bit. So, Jenni, what did you do? And I called you that morning.
Libby 5:22
I think probably first they told you to take a deep breath. That's usually the best first step when it comes to any issues that we encounter with our restaurant or dogs.
Jenni 5:33
Yeah, it's like it's anything on fire with the fire out? Is anyone bleeding? Stop the bleeding. Take a deep breath.
Emily 5:41
It was you were a godsend because I definitely went into panic mode. Like I will never be able to leave my house again.
Jenni 5:48
Yeah, yeah. And that's quite a scary feeling. And how long had you had Bean with you at that point?
Emily 5:57
I think only like 48 hours at the most. And I had noticed that she like followed me from room to room, her, her whole nervous system seemed to be on high alert. Like, if I moved rooms, she would get up out of any sleep that she was in and follow me if I went out to water the garden. She was upset, but I water the garden for like a minute. It's not, you know, we're in a drought here. So yeah, so but she was very concerned about where it was at all times. Yeah.
Jenni 6:27
So you and I, after that conversation at like fast forwarding a little bit, we saw each other at the resilience rainbow workshop. And that's where I first met being in person and I met you in person for the first time. And we learned there a lot about it, the HPA axis in the brain, and how stress affects that axis and the what's going on in the brain. And at different stages of life, how the stress response response in dogs is maybe stronger than other phases of life. And for every dog, it's different. But we can probably say, with some confidence, and I'm not a neurologist, or a neurobiologist, I have taken classes and read a lot on these subjects. But I want to put that caveat in there. But I think we can say with some confidence that a dog with beings history, as you said, you know, coming into your life, her, her life has been completely unedited, it up ended, she's separated from her family, it's normal, that she is going to want to clean to the person who she now views as her provider of care, and that she wants to trust. And it's really important. You know, I used to think, one of the most. And this is still important, but I think I previously would have said that the priority to a dog of her age coming into the home is socialization, like, right, we all know how important socialization is. But I've really from what I've learned in the last few months, and I've also been reading the stress factor in dogs by Dr. Kristina Spaulding, which anyone who hasn't read that who's interested in stress and dogs should should read that. What I think now is that, depending on the individual, of course, the priority should be on helping the dog feel safe, and doing whatever we can to build the trust account with the dog. And by that I mean, doing things that are predictable, and help the dog feel safe and not pushing them into situations that are scary because their whole brain is, you know, out of out of whack because of stress hormones and the experiences that they're having. And if we continue to compound that, it's only going to get worse over time. So I believe my advice to you after taking a deep breath, and then I started asking some questions like had you know, How long had you had her? Had she been left alone at all? How was she in the crate? You know, and we and then we talked about ways to start to help her feel safe in her new environment and not jumping to a conclusion that oh, she's got separation anxiety, I'm never going to be able to leave her alone or isolation distress. And, you know, just talking about how to prevent things from getting worse and get her on the right track to feeling safe again.
Emily 10:05
Right? That was so helpful because like, even though I know a lot, when you're really in it, just like the dogs, our emotions take over. So having you talk me through it, I was like, okay, okay, breathe. And we're going to take this one day at a time. Now, there were some hard things for my life, taking it one day at a time, like it a lot of ways I saw how this conversation could be so helpful to people because I had to put so much on hold, I had to tell clients, like, I'm not going to be able to see you and getting groceries for became difficult, like, there was that time period of like, making her feel safe and secure, that that impacted my life. And so I think you and I kind of talked about, like, helping everyone, including myself understand, like, how do we put our lives on hold, but also meet some of our needs as a human foster or adopter?
Jenni 11:02
Yeah, and I think it's, it's an important consideration for anyone who's listening who is thinking about bringing a new dog into their home at any age, but particularly, I would say, a dog, a puppy or an adolescent dog, because their brains are in more fragile states. And, you know, considering, are they able to possibly not leave the dog alone at all for at least a week? What do you think?
Emily 11:34
I think if at least a week, if possible. I mean, I guess every dog is different. And I actually, in retrospect, feel like I was a little naive, I had fostered so many puppies. And, you know, I used to have another person living in my house. Like, I think I hadn't really thought about the fact that what was going to be happening when I brought home a four and a half month old puppy, who just you know, all of a sudden, I was just in it. But that's really an interesting concept to think about is like, right, she was in that, you know, late puppy stage before she was an adolescent, her brain was just, you know, on, on full, full tilt.
Jenni 12:14
Yeah. And I think there's, there's a balance between having a period of not leaving them alone at all, to err on the side that they might have a tendency towards being anxious when left alone, to, you know, a week or two great a month probably too long. Because we also want to help them learn to be alone in a way that they feel safe and at a rate that they feel safe.
Libby 12:51
So yeah, Jenni, what's an appropriate way to go about doing that, given that we often have no idea of? What are rescue dogs histories are? How how do you coach? People going through this process of helping their dogs learn to be secure while alone?
Jenni 13:14
That's a great question. And an important question. I think AI. As an example, a real life example, I met with a client virtually this morning, who has recently added a second dog to her home. And the dog has expressed a little bit of anxiety when left alone. So she was worried does he have you know, real true separation anxiety or isolation and distress. So we watched him on video, she it's, it's nice to have a camera, but she just set up her computer in the room where the dog was being left. And we we watched him together while she went outside. And I watched his body language I was talking to her on on Zoom. So while we were watching him, and I was pointing out to her what his body language looked like. At first he was very alert, his his ears were very erect. And he kept looking at the door. But then after a while, he started walking around, he looked out the window a little bit. His tail went from a very high position to more relaxed, his ears started to relax a little bit, his whole body posture seemed to relax and he sat down. And after a while, he was just you know, very, after about five or six minutes, he was relaxed. And we waited until 15 minutes to make sure that he didn't have any kind of panic response always being ready to return immediately into the into the house if he started to show any signs of panic. So some of the key elements there are we were doing. He's been in the home for three weeks now and she's left him just for a couple of minutes at a time, when she wasn't sure how to tell if he was starting to panic or not, she didn't want to risk that. So you can start by learning how to observe or interpret, I guess, canine body language, so that you can recognize signs of stress in there. There's a lot of great information, probably some bad information, too, but some good information on the internet, great videos and infographics and Lily, Lily Chin has doggy language book. And, or you can talk to a professional. But if you have, if you get to the point where you want to try leaving your dog alone, I think it's best to be able to watch them and, and be able to recognize signs of of stress, and be able to recognize whether or not that stress is increasing or decreasing in intensity. So say you've had a dog in your home for two weeks that have been left alone a lot. You're like, you know what they seem like they're getting pretty comfortable in the home. I'm going to try leaving them alone. You can set up a camera first just go if they haven't been away from you at all, which I think was the case for for you, Emily with being I think we just had you like go in the other room right and being wasn't comfortable being created at that point. So we did two things simultaneously. I mean, not not simultaneously, but we did two things as beginning steps. I think we started getting him used to being left just in the room alone for very, very brief periods, right, like so you would just go out of the room, come back in the room, go out of the room, close the door, come back in the room, right. Does that sound familiar? And then with the crate, we started getting him more comfortable being in the crate because you weren't sure? What he would do if left? uncreated. Right.
Emily 17:04
So, actually, so what we what we did was we didn't worry about the crate, she seemed to panic in the crate. And so we just I decided taking crating off the table, since she was having so much trouble even like, having me like go into the bathroom if she was asleep on the bed, which is like five feet away. So yeah, I thought the crate was like middle school.
Jenni 17:31
Yeah. Okay. So I think we just worked on her being able to be in the room alone, and then working towards going outside the house. And in the meantime, you are not leaving her alone at all. So if you had to go somewhere, you arranged for someone to come and stay with her or you brought her with you.
Emily 17:53
Yeah, exactly. So one of the things that I noticed when I was realizing that beam had some separation distress was if I went outside, she was kind of panicky when I got back inside. If I was gone to the car for too long, like getting my wallet, she would sometimes actually poop in the house. And it seemed like that was stress related. So what are the signs that you look for Jenny? Like, how much whimpering and how much distress is okay, you know, like, what do you look for?
Jenni 18:30
Yeah, so I don't know how much of this I've learned just through experience over time, but I feel so to give concrete examples, I would say, you know, if you could put whimpering on a scale of one to 10 and one would be quiet, no whimpering and 10 would be screaming. I'm sure anyone who's been around dogs or puppies long enough, as heard, like really panicked, screaming for a dog who is mildly distressed, mildly stressed, I would say not distressed. I'm not sure what the proper term there is, but mildly uncomfortable. Maybe a three so a little bit of whimpering three to four for less than five minutes and not constant. So a little whimpering and then they're quiet, maybe a little more whimpering and they're quiet. Over the course of a few minutes. They're able to calm down. I would say that would be okay. That I would think that's okay. But if they start out at a three or four, a little whimpering and then that starts to escalate or looking at other that's specifically vocalizing. So and and you If it's constant for more than 15 seconds. Now if it's if it starts escalating, so in addition to looking at the intensity of the vocalization, looking at the trend is it increasing or decreasing. So puppy starts with a little whimpering. And then it gets louder and louder, and then they start barking and whimpering or howling. And then into a full on screen like that should not be happening. And I'm sure there are still places on the internet where you can see, you know, put the puppy in the crate, let them cry it out. That is usually not good advice. And if your puppy is doing a little bit of whimpering in the crate, or not even just a puppy a dog, and you're not sure you can sit next to them and talk softly to them, give them some treats, and see if they calm down. And if they can't calm down, take them out of the crate. For dogs that are left alone or being created, in general, you know, panting the same thing. Maybe a little bit of panting is okay. But if it's constant, or if it's increasing or escalating, that's a sign of distress. Any kind of elimination like you were seeing when you went outside, definitely signs of distress. Pacing can be assigned to and again, it's like does the dog pace slowly, a little bit like the dog I watched today. At first he was kind of walking around quickly in the room. But then after a while, he was like, oh, like every once in a while he'd walk around a little bit. And then he just he just stopped walking. But I've seen dogs who start pacing more quickly, the more agitated and distressed they get to. And then you know looking at the whole whole dog if you're watching the dog either live or on camera, not just one signal. You've all heard like, oh, the dog's tail was wagging right before they bit me. But if you look at the whole dog, and so are they vocalizing and pasting and panting and you know, possibly eliminating those are signs of a really a really distressed dog.
Emily 22:21
And I do think one thing that my friend said that I thought makes so much sense is you have to go slow to go fast. Yes. And really that's what happened with bean was like everything had to go on pause, it was like I can't go out to eat, I can't really go to the grocery store. Everything is just on pause while we get her settled in. And then as she started to have that grounding feeling and her little nervous system started to relax, then we could add some things in so it was this slow, but very successful process. And I do have to mention that about three weeks in I did contact our veterinarian and she did get some situational meds to to help with a little bit of that.
Jenni 23:05
Okay, yeah. And that's, uh, can you tell people kind of what led you to, to that decision?
Emily 23:15
Um, you know, I was kind of wanting to make sure even you know, though, I'm, you know, kind of identify as like a natural, free loving hippie who doesn't love to, you know, put pharmaceuticals in anybody if they are not warranted. I saw that the risk of having her have any panic was too great. Like better to err on the side of caution and have her basically have like what, you know, in my mind would be like a glass of wine to relax more so that I could do a few things. Like I had a friend sister came to town and we were gonna go to dinner. And so I watched her on the camera. She did vocalize this was like four weeks, and she vocalized for like, two minutes. And then she went and slept on her ottoman. And I was like, Oh, thank God, you know. And one thing that I have to say was that I made a puppy proofed a room for her and I felt like that really helped as opposed to going for that crate. So many people were like, try crate training and the crate just seemed like that was like an exercise that was going to just be terribly hard for her. So I puppy proofed a room and I had the camera and I just watched so probably my cortisol was elevated, you know a bit to be like, Oh my god, what is she doing? But it was so rewarding to be like, okay, she is settling. And she's resting.
Jenni 24:43
Yeah, yeah. And I think it's important to maybe clarify a little bit what you mean when you say puppy proofing a room. So it it might be clear to everybody but I have Yeah, I when I hear that. I think you made the rooms safe. So the safest? Yes. So the reason to create a dog is for safety, not to keep them from being destructive. Because if a dog is destructive, you need to ask yourself why or ask a professional to help you figure out why. And the solution is not to put them in a crate where they might hurt themselves trying to get out. Or, you know, people sometimes turn to these indestructible crates, when that just ends up, exacerbating the stress that the dog is feeling because they're, they still have all the, you know, internal distress, and now they're trapped in a very small space. So I love that you, you know, just you make the room as safe as possible. Or you can block off access to two rooms in the house, a lot of times, dogs do better in the room that the person leaves from, so where they can see the front door. And so instead of, you know, locking them in the bedroom, they might be better off in the living room with all the other doors closed, so they don't have access to the entire house. So thinking of limiting access to certain areas, rather than confining the dog.
Emily 26:34
Right. That's what we did it. It's funny. Now I'm remembering. I also played Jackson Browne a lot during the day, you know, and then when I would leave, I would leave Jackson Browne on. And she had the whole living room so she could see the front door, I unplugged as much as I could on plug, I had to keep the camera plugged in. Just you know, I worried about chewing a cord, that would be terrible. So unplugged my TV and those things. And then I had the kitchen, blocked off with a gate, and then the stairs blocked off in my office closed. So she basically had this big room. She did have my other dog there who I think maybe brought her some comfort. And that was something Libby wanted to chat about too was like, how much comfort does another dog provide? Or is that just case by case?
Libby 27:24
Yeah, I'm interested in like the canine sibling dynamic. And whether that's helpful. Can some dogs get too reliant on their canine siblings? And then are you creating a more another issue? What are your thoughts
Jenni 27:39
on that? Yeah, and I was just going to ask Emily, if her other dogs presence was helpful to be in or not. It's case by case some dogs do better with another dog present. What we do know is dogs that are anxious being left alone that that have like clinical separation anxiety, or isolation distress, they are rarely helped by the addition of another dog. But there are some instances I'm aware of where dogs, you know, if they're really bonded with another dog, then they are not as comfortable being left alone without that other dog present. So for sure, in some cases, it's helpful for dogs but not in all cases.
Libby 28:27
Is it possible for dogs to experience separation anxiety from each other? I mean, is that is that a thing? Some dogs experience?
Jenni 28:38
I believe so. Yeah, I think so. And just, you know, just the same as they can experience separation anxiety from a particular person. So some dogs are so attached to one person that they can't be left with another person. And one of the most difficult parts of helping a dog with separation anxiety is suspending absences. That's like, completely mandatory. So if a dog is so attached to one person, the first step is not necessarily to just start working on leaving them alone, but also to help them expand their circle of trust to other people to make it easier for the person that they're strongly attached to.
Libby 29:41
Yeah, it's so often with our dogs. I think we get these multi layered issues that we need to tackle them. It's so so tough to tease out what do we address first?
Jenni 29:58
Yeah, and I think That depends upon the quality of life of everyone involved. So what is causing the greatest disruption? And frustration to everyone? Because it, sometimes you can tackle multiple issues with one solution, but not always. So. And I think you both know that, and probably a lot of listeners know that behavior isn't isolated, no behavior is isolated, right. So everything is everything affects everything else, I think. So if you, for example, Bing, now she has different name, but I'm not sure if I'm supposed to say it. So anyway, she now she's comfortable in a crate, she, she can be left alone. She has some, you know, normal, like puppy behaviors that were much worse when she first entered the home. And her family. I spoke to them yesterday or the day before. And they said, after a few weeks, it was suddenly like, something clicked and she you know, she's starting to feel more safe. And they're seeing not just the behaviors that they've been specifically working on improve. But overall, her her behavior is starting to improve.
Emily 31:29
Oh, that's so interesting, right, we should let listeners know that your virtual trainer. So that's interesting, I haven't actually connected with them very much. And so that's great, you actually have seen the whole story, the beginning to the current
Jenni 31:43
Yeah, and one of one of the other SDR dogs also I'm working with virtually and they same thing, they both, both of the young dogs have been in their new homes for about the same amount of time. I think it's been about a month, three weeks or a month. And both of them are seeing like, suddenly an improvement in overall behavior. Even though they've they've been specifically targeting like the most problematic behaviors. But everything is improving.
Libby 32:21
So Jenni, these dogs who are experiencing a big shift in their behavior after about a month, how much of that is just an overall reduction in their stress level. And this decompression process that we talked about a lot kind of going back to what you're saying about stress and cortisol levels at the beginning of our conversation. Do you think that that has an impact?
Jenni 32:47
I definitely think that has something to do with it. Although I don't know, specifics, and I'm sure it's different for every dog. But absolutely, you know, even after one stressful event, say a dog has been in a family for two years, and there's a really stressful event or they move to a different house or you know, something a huge change in their environment, it can take them time to to readjust. And for their kind of their baseline stress level to be lowered.
Emily 33:23
It's so interesting to hear that because that was, you know, really my experience with being was that the first three weeks were hard, her nervous system was hijacked. And then, you know, the second two weeks, I felt like we were in a groove, smooth sailing, you know, then we started working more on potty training, kind of like teasing out like what's the priority for me and was like, I mean, I was working on potty training, but but it wasn't my priority because her nervous system was so hijacked, you know, and it was raining nonstop here. So yeah. So it's just interesting to hear that and I mean, Patricia McConnell's three weeks, three months, three, three weeks. I got that wrong. Yeah, it does sometimes really like ding ding ding like it does seem to have really rang true.
Jenni 34:13
Yeah, I was contacted by a family once who had driven from Colorado to like it was like Virginia or something to get a dog that they found on the internet. They brought the dog back to Colorado and within the first two days that they had the dog, they immediately put it in with their other dog within the first two or three days the dog bit their dog, another dog and a person and they were going to put it down. And they they actually they they called me saying do you think we need to put this dog down and I asked them you know we talked about safety and giving A dog some time, we brought a veterinarian into the conversation. And I met with them a few days after that phone call, and as, as far as I know, they never had another issue and they still have the dog. So that just and I think a big part of the of that dog's behavior initially, was the response to all the stress, you know, we talk about changing behavior, and starting in a low distracting environment, anytime we want to teach a dog or a person, for that matter a new skill, we need to also consider the internal state. So it was really smart view, Emily to realize, you know, I need to, I need to help this dog feel safe, before I can start working on other things. And then we have management strategies for things that we need to put on hold, right. So if, if a dog is not getting along with the new with another dog in the home, for example, that keeping them separate, while the dog, the new dogs settles in, gives, give them time to get used to their new environment and their new home, and then work on integrating the other dog and building a relationship between them.
Emily 36:25
Yeah, that's so interesting. I'm thinking back now not to harp too much on Bean but I picked her up actually in Kansas City. And she was just this little thing, and she couldn't even potty on the grass, like when I pulled her, you know, pulled off the highway, put her down on the ground, she would just stay on there frozen, like she, you know, so I put some potty pads in the back of the car, and just was like, this is just what we're gonna do for safety, because you can't be you know, so everything for her was so new, like, she'd never had a harness on before. She'd never been inside a home as far as I could tell. I mean, we don't know. But stairs, she didn't know how to do stairs and the icemaker, like just everything was so new. And then I was like, I have to go to the grocery store. So that's, you know, it's, it's like we have our needs, and then you have to just like take a step back. And that's why you were so helpful. Because I was like, Okay, you're right, like, remind ourselves, we have to remind ourselves what they've been through. And then just breathe. I think breathing and trying to empathize with them is really helpful for the human.
Jenni 37:38
Yeah, and reminding them that it's not forever. So you know, when I told you, you can't leave her alone, that's not forever. And if strategies aren't working to help her feel better being left alone, then talking to a veterinarian about using medication, possibly, or looking for medical, medical issues that might be contributing to, to their stress, and there any behavioral issues. So recently, I worked with another dog has done a foster home, who suddenly started resource guarding. And he had been in the home for six weeks with no problems, and then start resource guarding food and toys from the other dog. And we quickly figured out that the behavior change coincided with an ear infection. And the dog also has GI issues. So rather than jumping into a bunch of training, let's get the ear infection, feed the dog separately, don't have toys in the room, get the ear infection under control, which they had already seen about and it was being treated. And then I had a follow up with them. So there's a week after our first conversation, and they the they're still keeping the dog separate, but they said the dog is happier, the dogs are playing together better. As far as they they feel pretty comfortable. We haven't done it yet. But they think that guarding issue will probably be resolved just by the fact that the dog isn't in pain anymore.
Libby 39:36
And this brings up a question that Emily and I have discussed, which is you know, sometimes you do have to take a break from training, whether it's separation anxiety or resource guarding or whatever, you need to take a break to get some meds on board take care of a medical issue. You know, see the behavior that when we're talking specifically about separation anxiety, are you going If you have to take a break like that, you're gonna lose progress. How do you pick it back up when it's time to start that specific training again?
Jenni 40:09
Yeah, that's a good question and breaks in the answer. The short answer is it's going to depend on on every dog sometimes breaks. Like you're saying less is more slowest fast. Sometimes breaks can accelerate progress. Usually. So for example, if I was working with a separation anxiety dog, and the progress seemed to be stagnated, and the family decided they wanted to talk to the vet about starting some type of daily behavior Med, is this kind of maybe a situation that you're thinking of? So we might, depending on the medication and the better veterinarians recommendations, if it's something that might take a little while to kick in, we might say, Okay, let's take a two week break. During the break. We're not leaving the dog alone. And, and then, after we think the medication is maybe starting to take effect, then we'll pick up again, you could continue with the training missions. Why while you're waiting for the medication to take effect, but my recommendation is usually that if we think the medication is going to help, let's wait until it's kicked in to pick up again, so that I don't want to be wasting people's time and money. If we feel like we could be doing something better, let's do it better, and take a break until we can be doing it better.
Libby 41:39
Right? So in that time, that might mean using strategies like hiring the dog sitter, getting grocery pickup taking the dog with you, if you can't if it's safe, is things like that.
Jenni 41:53
Yes. Yep. And are having you know, family members, there are a lot of I went through Malena DeMartini's CSAT course last year. And there's so many creative strategies people came up with, you know, so if you know someone with a college student who just wants a quiet place to study and likes dogs, like they can come over to your to your house, there are Facebook groups, and different communities of families that are all going through this at the same time, and they can help each other out. Some of the rescues that I work with, have volunteers that will come and sit with the dog if someone is fostering a dog that has separate separation anxiety. I don't know. Just some dog rescue yet. You're still small. But
Emily 42:44
do actually a few years ago, we had a dog named Boomer and same situation, he came from a shelter in Eagle County and when his people need to his foster is needed to go to like a medical appointment or you know, anything, we would go and sit there was like three or four different people who went and sat with Boomer.
Jenni 43:04
Yeah, I think it's really valuable if you're able to help people out like that, because it's a big ask, especially if you know, a dog can't be left alone, it's probably pretty hard to find someone to foster them.
Libby 43:18
Yeah, so for rescues who are struggling with a dog in your rescue, who has separation anxiety that's like, that can be a tool in your toolbox, you know, get a crew of volunteers. And that's kind of the easiest rescue job in the world, just like going out with a dog for an hour and watch, you should watch an episode on Netflix or something like that.
Emily 43:40
Yeah, you're making me realize that we should proactively have that support system in place. And rescuers should consider doing that just, you know, asking for a couple of volunteers that we train, who could be that team, you know, who just comes in for that initial like, regardless of how the dog behaves? In the beginning, just not asking that dog to be home alone for too long, because it's such a tough ask for them to come into a new home and then be alone.
Jenni 44:09
Yeah, yeah. And you could, it'd be interesting to see what kind of a response you could get from just your general community. You know, who, because I'm sure there are people that can't have a dog for a number of reasons, but love dogs and would love nothing more to just go sit with a puppy, you know, any dog for an afternoon? Like I would do that?
Emily 44:36
Yeah, yeah. Now that sounds like a really good thing that we need to in our big planning. We're trying to do some really big planning and the rescue right now. So that's gonna go on the list.
Jenni 44:47
So if anyone's listening
Libby 44:53
so I would love to circle back a little bit to the topic of crating, which we've mentioned Need a few times, but I think there's probably more to say about it. And one big factor when it comes to the to crate or not to crate question is that a lot of our rescue dogs have just come off transport. And transport can be super scary. And they are in a crate. In it's probably loud. They're probably other dogs highly stressful environment. And we often find like, they are not going back in that great. No way no how. And so for those dogs, like Emily mentioned, you know, a great option is to copy proof of room or Jenny, like you said, like clothes off all the other rooms in the house. But I'd love to talk a little bit more about creating and how that plays into this conversation.
Jenni 45:49
Yeah, so you bring up some really good points about why dogs might be hesitant to go into a crate, especially if they're coming from into a rescue or from a shelter. And I think it's, it's a different situation. That is a different situation than taking a dog who's never been in a crate and playing games and teaching them to enjoy the crate. So one is maybe desensitization and just conditioning the crate to be a fun, comfortable place. And the other involves counter conditioning. So not just building a positive association with the crate, but removing the negative association. And it's very important not to force a dog into a crate. And there are some, even with dogs who have never been created, you know, they might be upset if you just put them in a crate and close the door. And a lot of puppies will whimper a little bit and then settle down, some puppies will actually panic. So for dogs who have a bad association with a crate, first, you know, ask Do they need to be created, if you feel like they do, is there some other way to accomplish what you feel is necessary, which is kind of what we talked about before keeping them safe, keeping your home safe. And you know, there are other alternatives like using baby gates and X pens that provide some of the same safety features of creating a dog without actually putting them in the crate. Then to get them comfortable with the crate, I would first get something that's different from the crate, if you have any information about the crate they used before, as different as possible from that crate. And maybe even start with an X pen. And you could do things like Teach them to relax on a mat, just in a room, and then teach them relax on the mat in the X pen. And then try putting the mat in front of a crate and teach them play you know, there are games you can play to teach them to relax on the mat in front of the in front of the crate. And then maybe the mat is halfway in the crate and halfway out of the crate. And then we try sometimes in the crate and out of the crate. And always associating the crate with really good positive experience watching their body language. You can do things like work on other fun behaviors that you might want to be teaching the dog that don't have any history with the dogs. So just you know, you might want to start to like sit and lay down or go on a mat or something and then have the crate there while you're doing these fun things. But you're not even interacting with the crate. And then after a couple of days, maybe start having the dog just go into the crate to get a treat and then they come right back out. I think it's if you have a dog who is very fearful of a crate, and it's and you think it's important to teach them to be comfortable with the crate. I think it's worth hiring a professional to help you baby because if you do it right. I think there can be a high rate of success and if you do it poorly then it can be really hard to undo any damage. Yeah.
Libby 49:45
Like so many things in doctrine.
Jenni 49:48
Yeah, yeah.
Emily 49:51
And life. Yeah.
Jenni 49:55
Yeah, you know, I just can't I can't To emphasize enough what Emily said earlier about slow is fast, it's so much better. You know, I was talking to someone recently about nail trims. And I do the same approach like we're playing games we're doing, you know, hand target and sit and lie down and rollover. And now I'm going to, you know, just touch your paw. And maybe now I'm going to touch your paw and hold up the trimmers. And then I go back to doing some other fun things, replay, you know, a little bit of tug or something. And occasionally, I bring in this other thing, so it's not a big deal, it's not like, now we're going to learn how to trim all of your nails, then then the dog is afraid of the nail trimmer, and they never want to go near it again, rather than even my own dog, she's seven, I have never trimmed all of her nails on all her paws in one sitting, she's, she will let me she will Let me trim up a few of her nails without any issue. But if I push it too far, I can see the look on her face. And I would rather not have that look on her face, I would rather just do a couple of nails. And then later in the day, we do a couple more than make it a stressful situation for everyone.
Emily 51:17
So interesting. I'm listening to this. And I'm thinking about Patricia McConnell's book, the other end of the leash. And I think so much of this is human coaching. And it was just so interesting to be the human being coached as to like, go slow, you know, like we, we tend to have a lot of expectations and a desire to go fast. And so it is a lot about the human end of the leash, as well.
Jenni 51:44
Yeah, and I think as, as professionals, we also feel like we should we should be able to figure it all out. Yeah, like we should, we should know better, I hired someone to help me actually shots or Monaco to rally. She helped me tremendously with some of the handling. I don't like to use the word issues all the time, but helping my dog be more comfortable with vaccines and with nail trims. And, you know, I I realized, like you're saying sometimes you're, you're too close, you're too close. And I think we put more pressure on ourselves than we put on other people. So if we were able to backup and treat ourselves like, like one of our clients, we'd have more success. But for some reason, that's not very easy to do.
Libby 52:43
I can relate so much to that. I hit a big wall with training Daisy, and working with her bikery activity. And I called Marisa Martino and I said I don't know if all these things in a candidate, and it's overwhelming and I can't do it. And it was just so valuable to have Marissa is help. And she came over for a session and like that was the breakthrough that we needed to to continue on, on this training path. So yeah, I really, really relate to this.
Jenni 53:22
Yeah, I think it's important for all of us to be able to give ourselves the grace to ask for help when we need it. And it doesn't mean that we aren't capable means that we're, we're human, and we need each other.
Emily 53:45
Oh my god. Well, that's such a great place to wrap up. And I'll always be grateful that you answered that phone while I was like sitting there and my towel after my shower going. I'm tired. And I don't know what to do. And I can't help this dog for the next 14 years.
Jenni 54:02
Yeah, well, I'm glad you called. And I'm glad I was able to help. And now Bean has a wonderful, happy home. And yeah, all thanks to your patience and your willingness to ask for help.
Libby 54:18
Awesome. Well, Jenni Pfafman, thank you so much for your time. We really appreciate appreciate you and it was a great conversation. So thank you.
Jenni 54:28
Thanks. So enjoyed it very much. Thanks for having me on the podcast.
Libby 54:35
Thanks for tuning in. If you liked this episode, don't forget to rate and review and helps other folks like you find the show. Thanks to Mike pesci for the original music and James Eid have be heard for production. For show notes and transcripts visit pod to the rescue.com Let us know what you think about this episode on social media or at pod to the rescue on Facebook and Instagram and we love connect Talking with listeners we'll catch you next time on cod to the rescue oh and tell your dog we said hi
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