|
Dog Body Language with Emily TronettiWe know you don't want your dog to be stressed. But do you know how to tell when your dog is stressed? Reducing your dog's stress levels can reduce their reactions of fear and anxiety, and one of the best ways to do that is to learn to read your dog's body language.
Emily Tronetti is an animal behavior expert who, in this conversation, gives you invaluable information about how to gauge and manage your dog's health via their body language. She has extensively studied Applied Animal Behavior, Anthro Zoology, and is currently pursing her doctorate at Antioch. (Oh, and she was an SDR Intern back in 2018. Aren't we lucky!) In this episode, the two Emily's and Libby talk about the major dog signals to pay attention to, the ways we can miss our dog's signals, and integrating your dog's consent into the conversation around petting and hugging. This episode has invaluable information that can support your relationship to your dog. Emily Tronetti: https://www.coexistence.consulting https://www.facebook.com/Coexistence.Consulting/ https://www.instagram.com/coexistence.consulting/ Humane Alliance of Rescue Trainers: https://rescuetrainers.org/about/ Fear Free Happy Homes: https://www.fearfreehappyhomes.com/video/dog-body-language-101/ iSpeakDog: iSpeakDog: http://www.ispeakdog.org/ Renée Erdman Free Dog Body Language Course on Thinkific: https://dogknowledge.thinkific.com/courses/dog-body-language Dogkind Petting Consent Test: https://youtu.be/-hsOlJwMwps |
Episode Transcript
Emily 0:09
Welcome to pod to the rescue.
Libby 0:11
Rescuing the dog is just the first step. We're here to help with everything that comes next. Welcome back to pod to the rescue. I'm Libby
Emily 0:21
and I'm Emily
Libby 0:22
and today we are interviewing Emily Tronetti. Emily Tronetti is a graduate with honors from the Academy for dog trainers holds a certificate in applied animal behavior from the University of Washington and a master's degree in anthrozoology from Canisius College. She is now pursuing her Doctor of Education specializing in humane education at Antioch University. Emily is also a co founder of the Humane alliance of rescue trainers heart, which matches rescues and shelters to credential trainers for behavior support at no cost. Emily did an internship with SDR back in 2018 when she was working on her master's degree and we are thrilled to have her be one of our first guests on the podcast.
Emily 1:09
It was such a great interview. We're so lucky, we got to have Emily come by.
Libby 1:13
We talk in depth about body language and how important it is for dog guardians to be able to read their dogs and understand what our dogs are telling us all the time.
Emily 1:26
Yeah, it's something that I didn't know when I got into this. But yeah, we're a verbal species and their nonverbal species. They primarily communicate through body language. And it's really important if you're going to share your life with dogs or rescue dogs to understand what they're trying to tell us. So I was really thrilled to have this conversation with Emily.
Libby 1:46
Absolutely. I think this is a must listen episode for any dog person. So we hope you enjoy it.
All right, Emily Tronetti. Welcome to pod to the rescue. Thank you so much for being here.
Emily T 2:04
Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited.
Libby 2:07
Let's jump right in. If you had one thing that you felt was the most important thing for dog guardians to know, what would that be?
Emily T 2:15
That is such a great question. So I think that dog body language is the most important thing for dog guardians, as well as professionals who work with dogs or people in in rescue work. Definitely dog's body language is the most important thing for all of us to know. There have been several studies that have found that, you know, many dog guardians don't do a great job at recognizing signs of fear, anxiety and stress in their dogs. And so when we can't tell if our dogs are stressed, this means that we might continue to put them in situations that cause them fear and anxiety. And when dogs are continually exposed to their to the things that's that make them feel fearful or stressed, there's a high risk that they'll become even more fearful and stressed, which eventually could present it like reactivity or aggression. And so by learning how to read our dog's body language, we'll be able to, you know, again, like identify when our dogs are experiencing fear, anxiety and stress will then be able to prevent those, those emotional experiences will be able to prevent fear, anxiety and stress from worsening, or escalating to aggression. And, obviously, this is so important from like a safety perspective. Of course, the safety of not only us humans, but also our dogs. But it's also really important for the just the welfare and well being of dogs. You know, I think I love all of the like, kind of dog by safety information that's out there. But one thing that I would love to see more of is how important you know learning dog body language is for our dogs welfare and well being so it's not just all about us keeping us humans safe. It's really important for our dogs to to, to understand, or for us to understand what they're telling us. And so when we can objectively observe what our dogs are experiencing, we can then make changes to their environment or to the context to make sure they feel safe and comfortable. And then we can also better identify what our dogs are enjoying and and make sure that we provide more of those, those enjoyable opportunities for them.
Libby 4:42
Oh my gosh, I love this so much. And I love what you said about it's not just about our safety, or about prevention. It's about the dog safety and well being because we know from working in shelters and rescues that a dog with a bite history is really difficult for or rescue to place. And if it's bad enough, and there are enough bites, that could be a death sentence for the dog and understanding body language and preventing it from ever getting to that point is a huge part of a dog's safety and welfare. And then the welfare piece, we know, from human studies that the effects of elevated cortisol over time is just, it can wreck our health. And so the same has got to be I don't know if there are any studies about this. And, you know, maybe you know that, that but, you know, the same must be true for our dogs that just being stressed out all the time, because you're anxious, and no one is here. No one is listening. I mean, that's not healthy for our dogs.
Emily T 5:48
Yeah, exactly. And there has been some research, like Animal Welfare Research that, you know, has found that when animals, non human animals are chronically stressed, it's very similar to, to what happens to us humans, when we're chronically stressed, it does impact us, not only emotionally, but physically as well. So, you know, there are so many reasons why it's important to understand dog's body language, it's, you know, it's not just for safety, it's not just to make sure they feel good, it's for their physical health, and, of course, their mental health. It's very, very complex. A lot of complex reasons for why this is so important. But the wonderful thing is, is that it's, it's a lot easier to learn how to speak their language. I think that and of course, obviously, there's, there is some, it can be tough to kind of understand, you know, there's a lot of, I would say, there can be some disagreement about what different things mean, in regards to dog body language. But I feel like we, especially over the last several years, we're learning a lot more about about dogs about their behavior, about their body language. And we're starting to see a bit more agreement about what different things mean, which is really nice for us, animal trainers to be able to work together. But also, it's, it's been really helpful to, to be able to more effectively educate pet guardians on how to, you know, how to understand what their dogs are saying,
Emily 7:26
you know, when you go to a foreign country, like France, you get a little phrase book, and you have just a couple of things that you know, to get around, if you were going to coach, a new person understanding, learning dog body language, what would you say would be like the top five things you would tell them to look for?
Emily T 7:44
I love that example. And I love that question. I think the idea of perceiving our interactions with our dogs, kind of in the same way of like, you know, communicating with someone who speaks a different language, I really I really like that communication. I looked this up, because I was interested in like, you know, what exactly is the definition of communication. And at least one of the definitions I found was that it's a process by which information is exchanged between individuals. And so, you know, research has shown that dogs are quite good at understanding like human communicative signals and emotional states. And so if we're to effectively communicate with them, like if we're, if we're to have that effective communication, that exchange between, you know, us and our dogs, we have to also learn what our dogs are telling us. And, yeah, I was trying to, like, identify, like, you know, what are the top three are their top five, you know, like, communication signals, everyone should know. And it's really hard to just pick one. And so are depict even just a few, because it really, there's so many different factors as to like what like, you know, depends on the context depends on the individual dog. But I would say, one thing that kind of popped in my head, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on this, I feel like the most important signal to look out for is is where the dog's body is in relation to what's happening in the environment. So distance is a primary way that dogs communicate. So for example, you know, one of my dogs is fairly sound sensitive. And so if she hears a sound that worries her, you know, let's say I'm in the kitchen and I you know, act like maybe I crank the pans a little bit too loud or something, and she'll like, leave the kitchen. And of course, you know, this sounds like painfully obvious, right? Like, of course our dogs move away from the things that are scary, but this can actually be quite subtle. Like I actually see this this kind of thing like dogs trying to create distance. I see that being missed a lot. Hot. You know, and I think there's a few reasons for this one is because, well, I would say the main reason is because dogs are often limited in their ability to move away from what's concerning them. So this could be due to them being on leash. But it also is could just be because they're pretty much always in some kind of enclosed space. And I think that we, at least one thing that I've kind of learned about dogs is I think we, we don't recognize how much like being in a room, like how small that feels to them, if that makes sense. And so, you know, I think sometimes our dogs, you know, they can't move away in the way that they want to, maybe, you know, even if we're just like, standing in the room in a way, you know, they're like, Well, there's two walls behind me, and then there's, you know, someone in front of me, I feel like I can't, I feel like I can't create the distance I want to create. So like, when I when I used to do more like dog play groups and stuff, like even just being aware of where the humans were standing in relation to, to the dogs and even just like me, like stepping, stepping in one direction to kind of give those give one dog, the, the, the ability to, you know, create that space if they need to, to feel like they can create that space is really important, it can really be that subtle. And then, you know, some dogs for whatever reason, there's, in addition to kind of the, the space, the space actually being limited, if some dogs don't walk away, but might use less obvious signals. So they might turn their body away, or maybe they just turn their head away, that like the head turns, you know, like that, looking away that kind of more avoidance that is so subtle, you know, a lot of people just don't see that. But it's very powerful. I think for dogs, it says a lot. And it could be even, that they're not even turning their whole head away, they might just be looking away, you know, that White might be when you start to see like the whale I so the whites of their eyes. And so, you know, I think with this kind of idea, like in my head, when I'm thinking about distance, you know, it could be the dog physically moving away, or it could be again, you know, looking away, when they're actually actually by turning their head or looking away just with their eyes, it's all kind of about this. I think this the dog is like just trying to create space, in whatever way they can, or at least signal to the person or other dog. Like, I would like some space.
And, you know, it's funny, I sometimes see this with my own dogs, like if I you know, try to like cuddle with them or, or pet them and they're like, you know, sometimes that into it, you know, sometimes they're like, I'm not really into cuddles right now. And that's totally okay. So, you know, and they might, you know, like my one dog, especially very now, to me, it's obvious very obviously, we'll just kind of turn her head away for me, like, I don't, I'm not, I'm not into petting right now. And that to me is like, okay, so I'm gonna give you some space. So, you know, they're always using their bodies to ask us for space. And we should respect that.
Emily 13:18
It's so interesting hearing you talk about that it makes me think about, you know, people maybe could also learn just by watching dogs interact, because dogs don't really pet each other. Or usually, like, if you're having a healthy normal dog interaction, they don't like run up and kiss each other's faces right off the bat when they're first meeting like, and they do do a lot of like head turns and you know, arched side body language. And then with humans, we do tend to like walk straight up to a dog, look them right in the eye. And if they look away, I think sometimes we can misinterpret that as like, you know, why aren't they paying attention to me, but really, that's a body language communication. They're trying to tell us something. But since we don't normally speak dog, we misinterpret it, wouldn't you say?
Emily T 14:09
Yes, absolutely. I think that we are often missing those subtle signs and and misinterpreting them as like, Oh, he's like, all the time. I hear things like oh, he's just not paying attention. So like a dog who, you know, maybe I walk up to a dog on the street to greet the dog. And I get in the dog space and try to pet them and then the dog moves away and starts sniffing and you know, their guardian might be like, oh, sorry, he's just you know, he got distracted he's just not paying attention. That's that was intentional on the dogs part. The dog was like, Oh, this is a little too much for me. I'm just I'm totally you know, giving the dog some some human emotions right now. But you know the dog that is the dog trying to communicate case that they need, they need a little bit of space, they need some time to kind of, you know, whether that's get accustomed to the situation or just again, just kind of create create that space. Because not all dogs, not all dogs want people or other dogs all alike, you know, in their face all the time. And we humans tend to, to like getting in their faces and like touching them and whatnot. And if your dog doesn't like that stuff, it's totally okay. It's totally normal. There are other ways that we can interact with our dogs that don't involve hugging them and, you know, touching them.
Emily 15:38
And I think also, if you think about it with us, humans, we have like our space bubble, meeting new people, and with dogs, we tend to not think that they do, but I'm thinking about my friends, like, it takes me a little while before I'm a hugger, or I feel comfortable, you know, having them in my real personal space. And I certainly don't think I'd want many of my friends patting my head or grabbing my face and kissing me, you know, but dogs seems like people pretty quickly go, you know, you go over to Thanksgiving, and you start petting the dog within the first 15 minutes. And then by the end, you're baby hugging it, what do you think about hugging dogs? Especially dogs? You don't know,
Emily T 16:21
I do not recommend hugging dogs, you don't know. I mean, it really all comes down to body language. You know, I think I think most often dogs don't appreciate hugging. But again, all dogs are all all dogs are individuals, you know, some dogs based on their learning history based on their experiences. Might not mind you know, petting or maybe even hugging, I would say they're probably rare, the dogs who truly don't mind hugging. I know, at least both of my dogs are not fans of hugging. They they enjoy heading, but on their terms when they when they want when they want to be pet. And I think you know, later today we're going to talk about that more like looking at, you know, how can we tell if our animals want to be touched? And you know why why that's so important to learn how to ask our pets for consent. But yeah, I think that I would just assume I would assume that that that dogs don't enjoy hugging, and and let them tell you that it's something they enjoy.
Libby 17:44
So how do you know that a dog wants to cuddle or wants to be scratched more or wants to be pet? Is there? Is there a way that dogs you know, I'm just thinking as we're having this conversation if someone a total stranger walked up to me on the street and grabbed me by this cheeks and smooched me on the face? I mean, I would call the police? You know, because I didn't consent to that. Is there a way that we can ask dogs to consent to more touch?
Emily T 18:24
That is such an important question. And I'm so so glad that we are asking this question more and more. Because I think that I mean, I mean, I remember growing up that just was never something that we talked about, like whether or not the dog wanted to be be touched. It was like we we touched the dog when we want to touch the dog. And you know, like there wasn't really wasn't this acknowledgment that animals do have a choice. But unfortunately, you know, by living in our very human world, dogs kind of inherently have limited choice and control. And so I think it's important that we that we recognize that we're aware of that because the the ability to make choices and have control over their environments over their experiences is a necessary component of you know, preventing, like negative welfare and our dogs and in promoting positive welfare positive well being in our dogs. And, you know, I think just like humans, just like all animals, dogs deserve to have choices. They deserve to say no. But you know, we can't verbally ask them for consent. And so that's why it's so important to to be able to observe their body language. So here is kind of what I recommend in terms of like a process like how can I ask my dog if they want to be touched? So So, I would first like if you're, you know, walking up to a dog or even with your own dog, and you're just hanging out at home in the living room, instead of approaching the dog, try to, like, give them the chance to approach you. And you can, of course, you know, invite them, you know, you can pet your leg or call their name and, and just, but give them the choice to approach you rather than you just going right into their space. And once they approach you, let them ask you for the type of engagement that they're looking for oftentimes, especially, you know, with the dogs that we have a close relationship with, it's pretty, we start to learn, like, what are the signs that my dog wants to play? versus what you know, what does she do when she just wants to, to have to be to be touched, you know, when she, when she wants to be touched, she might do like this, she does this really cute little pa thing. But if she wants to play she, I don't even know how to describe it, but she does this really goofy, like, like, she starts kind of huffing and puffing and play ballad and you know, it's just different. And so, you know, learning the learning about your individual dog learning how they asked for those things, and giving them the chance to ask for the type of engagement that they're looking for. You know, dogs might also if they want petting, they might kind of nudge your hand or lean into you, like a lot of the big breeds, like will do that leaning into thing. And so, you know, just kind of looking out for for signals in regards to like, you know what that dog is looking for. And then once you start petting or touching or playing with the dog, remember to stop frequently, and and make sure they're still consenting to the interaction. So you know, every few seconds or so, you just just take your hands off of them and give them a chance to, to say, Yes, keep going, or no, I'd like a break. And so you know, does the dog move closer to you by placing themselves under your hand when you take your hands away. And if so, if you're seeing those types of signals, those kinds of like keep going signals, you can continue petting, touching or playing with them. But on the other hand, if you like when you pause, petting, or play, if the dog, you know, tries to move away, or looks away, or displays other stress signals, like lip licking, or shaking off, or kind of, you know, if they all of a sudden, like walk away and start sniffing the ground, like I mentioned in my example earlier, you know, it might be that might be the dog saying I just I need a little space, I need a little time and space. So make sure the dog has the ability to create that distance if they would like so. And if and if they if they do, if they do create that distance, then you can kind of just start the process over again. So you know, let them approach you. If they do approach you, let them kind of give them the chance to ask for what they're looking for.
You can start petting them, and then again, give them a break and see and see what they what they want. Do they want more petting? Or do they want another break. And so I know that like this idea of like, when I've when I teach this to various students, and kind of different contexts I, I kind of it, you know, I think people get kind of put off by this idea of interacting with our dogs in this more like systematic way like it takes out some of the magic or something. You know, like when we're petting and interacting with our dogs, if we're like thinking about these things in this kind of systematic way. But I promise that the more that you do this, the more that you interact with your dogs this way, the more natural it feels, it just becomes how you interact with them. It doesn't become like for me, I mean, I've been doing I've been doing this for a few years now and it's not even something I think about in my head necessarily, you know, I've done it for so long and I know what to look for. It's just just how we communicate. You know, it's just like how I communicate with with my with my partner or with my family. It's not something I necessarily have to think about and process in my head. But at first it is going to feel a little different because it's new, but it's so beneficial to to interact with our dogs in this way. And there's a great video and maybe we can link to this like in the show notes there's a great video by dog kind is the the the trainer, the training organization that put this together on petting consent tests, and it just shows you you know, shows you the process it also shows you know just how natural it looks to, to be able to to interact with your dogs in this way. And then you mentioned I think you mentioned now I'm trying to remember exactly how you worded your question. But I would say that, you know, if, if you're out and about in the world with your own dog, and you have, you know, people wanting to interact with your own dog, consider how you can, can gently guide others on how to give your dog at choice. And so that that's hard, because there's a lot of social pressure to have a dog who, you know, gets a lot like, who loves people, and I know for me, you know, when I was out and about, like, walking my dog, my dog is very, you know, like, if people pay attention to her, she's like, Oh, new friend. And so, but it's very interesting. She likes to say hi to people, but she gets, as soon as they like, lean over her and start petting her and getting like, kind of in our face, you know, she, her tail starts to go down, and she starts looking away and kind of looks at me, like help me, mom. And so and so that's my cue to like, Okay, we, this interaction needs to end. And so ideally, we don't, I don't even want her in that position in the first place. And so I've started to learn how to guide people from the start on how to interact with her. So you know, I might say instead of having them come up to her and just start petting her. Obviously, this depends on your exact context, you know, walk, you might not be able to explain to someone how to do a pet and consent to us, but maybe give them something else they can do. So I might say like, oh, this is Ayla here, why don't you give her? Why don't you ask her to sit and give her a treat, you know, get, have them do something that isn't that like social pressure, like all over her touching her. Those are the things that stress her out. And so you know, just consider what your dog enjoys. You know, make sure you're watching your dog's body language throughout interactions with other people throughout your own interactions with your dog. And just make sure your dog always has the freedom and the space to create distance from people or other dogs, if they do, you know, start to get uncomfortable if they if they decide that they aren't consenting to the interaction. But yeah, I mean, it's really all about just getting to know our dogs and and, and listening to what they're saying. And, and helping them helping them out if they decide they're, they're not comfortable with it with with something.
Emily 27:25
You know, this is such great information. And I think people might say, Well, why? Why do we want to do this? You know why we've always had dogs, we never learned this. But as someone who's received the emails at Summit dog rescue for the last decade, we get asked almost every day from somebody who has a family pet that, you know, has an emergency, they need to get rid of their dog, because, quote out of the blue, never done it before, bit of you know, friend who was visiting or bid someone out on a walk, and biting seems to be, you know, the last resort for a dog and there were probably a million signals missed along the way. So if we can understand those signals along the way, we could probably prevent a lot of dog bites.
Emily T 28:12
Absolutely, for sure. I think. I mean, the, my whole kind of my whole goal with educating people about things like, you know, asking, asking dogs for consent is not only to I mean, if you're if you're taking those, that those steps, if you're, if you're like asking the dog from the beginning, like letting them approach you and letting them communicate with you all a lot like the along the way. I mean, you're giving the dog lots of opportunity to move away to say no, you know, it's, I would say a moat. I mean, of course, we probably need research on this. But I would say in most cases, a lot of dogs, you know, they're not going to feel like they need to bite because they always have the upper, you're giving the dog the opportunity to move away to create distance to say no. And I think that, you know, at least most of the baits that I've that I've been, you know, asked about are the dogs that I've worked with who have bite histories. It's because they didn't get they weren't given the option to say no. So I think when we start giving them that option, it's gonna make a huge difference and we are going to be able to decrease dog bites and we're going to be able to, to just improve the lives of our dogs which then like, I mean, just giving our dogs the ability to say no, it had it enables them to, to develop more trust in us as their guardians and in their environments because they feel like they're they have some control over their environments and And that I mean even as humans, I don't know about you, but I get really stressed when I don't feel like I'm in control. And so I think even just simple things like this, like a petting consent test, um, you know, it's, it has the ability to go even go beyond, you know, just preventing dog bites, but also, you know, improving our relationships, improving their, their mental well being and, and thus improving our own mental well being because, you know, I'm happier when my dogs are happy, that's for sure.
Emily 30:32
Right? I think last week, we interviewed Patricia McConnell, and she likened it to go into the dentist and being able to say to your dentist, like, Okay, I need a second year, you know, and then explaining the procedure and you being able to stop and interims whereas if you went into your dentist, and they like strapped you into the chair, and you had no, no choice or control, it would be a much more stressful situation. So, you know, the more we can have them feel like they have some control and choice, the happier the entire win win situation will be.
Libby 31:03
For sure, I agree. And it also just strikes me as almost a do I want to use the word ethical, like I said, that maybe it is an ethical thing, we ask our dogs to do so much for us. And we expect them to listen to us, whenever we tell them to sit, Come Leave it, whatever. And it's only fair to listen to them. When they asked for something when they asked for space when they asked for.You know, whatever it may be,
Emily T 31:34
I completely agree.
Libby 31:35
So what are some other common body language signs that people miss and their dogs?
Emily T 31:44
Yeah, so I there are quite a few. I would say like tail wagging is, is one. So I think a lot of people learn, like I know, when I was growing up, I learned that if a dog is wagging their tail, they're happy. And if their tail is tightly tucked between their legs, then the dog is scared, and you should leave them alone. But tails are much more complex than than that, you know, wagging tail can Yes, it can mean the dog is happy. But it can also mean you know, a dog is feeling a little anxious or stressed or, you know, aroused, like amped up. But um, so, you know, it's it's, it's just, I feel like they we need to learn to not hone in on just one aspect of the dog of their body language, you know, there's an entire body attached to that and tail, that's also displaying very important communicative signals. So we shouldn't just look at the tail, we should also be looking at the eyes and the ears and the muzzle and the position of their head and body. And so this is a an example of you know, why we should take into account the context that that our that our dog is in at the time. So, you know, a dog wagging their tail when their guardian gets home from work might mean something different than when that same dog wags their tail when the veterinarian walks into the exam room. You know, so there, there might be some some differences there. Yeah, so we should ask ourselves, what what's happening in the environment that might be influencing their body language and behavior. And then again, considering the individual dog in front of us, you know, some dogs have individual quirks. So we should be cautious about making, you know, kind of sweeping generalizations like all dogs are happy when they're wagging their tail, we need to be careful about making those generalizations. I just feel like it's so important to to get to know, you know, what contexts make my individual dog stressed versus you know, what contexts Do they feel good in, you know, just to get a sense of like, what our dog's baseline is, what does that look like. But then also keep in mind, just like humans, what a dog is comfortable with may vary from day to day, even minute to minute, depending on several factors. So we should always be monitoring body body language, no matter how well we know the dog. And so that's why, like, I think a good thing to keep in mind when we're talking about like, body language that we might misinterpret, you know, making sure that we're very objective about our observations, rather than kind of just jumping to you know, emotional interpretations about what our dog is feeling when they're doing XYZ. And again, taking into the car, taking into account the context, the whole like, what else is the body doing and the individual dog I can help? I think Cut down on those misinterpret misinterpretations that we might see,
Emily 35:03
that makes a lot of sense. I also think that looking at how tight their muscles are, like, if you don't have enough time to really figure out that, you know, every little body part be like is their body like loose and wiggly side to side that gives you some information and if they're really tense and their mouth is tense, you see all the muscles start to tense that some information that maybe they're not so comfortable.
Emily T 35:30
Yeah, I love that. That's, that's, I think, really helpful. And I'm so glad you brought that up, because I think that we least as like animal trainers, you know, we're we want to, like teach everyone all the things, all the little things to look for. But, you know, if we can teach, you know, the whether or not they're there, their bodies are tense versus loosen wiggly, and where in like the distance thing we mentioned earlier, like where their bodies are in relation to what's happening in their environment. I mean, we can we can, we can probably, you know, solve a lot of problems if we if everyone were aware of just those things.
Libby 36:09
I mean, it's so crucial and important and really overlooked often, I think, okay, so what resources do you recommend for people to learn more about dog body language, all of these subtle signals that we're talking about?
Emily T 36:22
I'm so glad that you asked that question. So fear free happy homes is a wonderful website with so many great resources, including some really well done videos on dog body language. And the thing I love about the site is that everything on the website is approved by a veterinary behaviorist, so you know that you're getting credible information, which is kind of hard to come by on the internet. So I highly recommend checking out fear free happy homes. And another great resource is I speak dog. It's a website, just like kind of fun, interactive website about dog body language. And then one of my colleagues, Rene Erdman, she is with Bravo dog knowledge. She has a variety of online courses, one of which is a free online course on dog body language. So it's free. And I I'm, she's wonderful. And I have no doubt that that course is amazing. So definitely check that out, too.
Libby 37:26
So once people understand body language a little bit more, how do you think guardians can incorporate that information into their daily lives with their dogs.
Emily T 37:37
So once we understand our dog's body language, it's so important to just keep observing their body language, you know, the more we observe their body language, the better we get at noticing those more subtle signals. And the more that we practice those skills, the more natural it'll start to feel. And honestly, I find it kind of fun, I feel like a little scientist, when I'm just like, noticing all the things my dog is doing, and you know, making those observations and so you know, have fun with it. And, and over time, you know, this should become a part of your daily life of your daily life, it should be a part of how we all interact with our dogs with any dog. And so I think that, you know, once once we once we develop these skills, I hope that we will start to listen to our dogs in the same way that we listen to the humans that we interact with.
Libby 38:39
Absolutely. I think that once you start paying attention, it just kind of almost opens floodgates of information that you didn't have before, and it can only enrich your relationship with your dog. I mean, we know with human relationships, that too much communication is like never a bad thing.
Emily T 39:03
Yeah, for sure it I really, truly believe that. Learning dog body language is really is the key to to having better relationships with our dogs.
Libby 39:15
So Emily behavior is often the missing piece and rescue and shelter work, which is one of the reasons we're doing this podcast, and heart sounds like an incredible resource. Can you tell us about heart and how it works?
Emily T 39:27
Yes. So heart stands for the Humane alliance of rescue trainers. And it's a nonprofit that matches shelters and rescues with credentialed professionals for training and behavior support. And we offer that support at no cost, which is so important with you know, many shelters and rescues just don't have the resources to get behavior and training support. So we really felt like this was something that was needed and all of our train nurses and behavior consultants are committed to humane forestry training, which is so important. And and so for our listeners who are involved in rescues, or, or shelters, if you need behavior support for your animals, please head to the heart website. So the link for that, which I know will include in the show notes, but really easy link, it's just rescue trainers.org. And you'll head to that website. And we have a contact page with a few different forms. And so you'll if you I would I would recommend is filling out the form to request to partner with us before you have a case to submit ideally, that way we can get started on kind of, you know, making sure that we're the right fit to partner with each other. And we also have some paperwork that we'd like you to sign. That way we can get that out of the way. And when you do need help with a specific case with a specific animal, that process can go a little bit more quickly. Now, if you do have a case already, if you're listening, and you're like I know exactly, you know this one dog or many dogs who would benefit from health, that's totally okay to you, you can submit a case before you partner with us. And then we'll just kind of go through that those initial stages of you know, getting the partner partnership process kind of in the works. And then you know, try to get you try to get that case help as soon as possible after after that. And basically how that works is once we receive a case, case requests for help, we reach out to our participating trainers to find one who is available to donate up to four sessions to help that animal. And then if you're a credentialed animal trainer and are interested in volunteering for us, please also head to our website and fill out the form to request to be a participating trainer. We would love your help we as as we're starting to grow, we're starting to get a lot more interest from shelters and rescues who who are looking for help. And so we would, you know, the more trainers that we have, the better, especially those trainers who are credentialed and committed to force free training. You know, we're really excited to be able to provide this resource to shelters and rescues and need all the help we can get to do that.
Libby 42:17
That's an incredible resource. I mean, this is amazing for rescues and shelters. So thank you for your work on that.
Emily 42:23
Yes, you right now with the pandemic, you know, starting to hopefully be behind us. There's so many dogs coming into the shelters, and rescues. So it's just great timing. And I'm so grateful that you guys are doing this.
Emily T 42:39
Yeah, thank you so much. I appreciate being able to chat about it. And I'm so so happy to have just been able to be here today and talk about body language. It's something I'm very passionate about. And it's really, really great to get this information out there to guardians.
Libby 42:57
Thank you so much. Thank you for your time. This is amazing. Thanks for tuning in. If you liked this episode, don't forget to rate and review. It helps other folks like you find the show. To find out more about our programming and adoptable rescue dogs. You can visit summit dog rescue.org thanks to Mike pesci for the original music and to Alex Lee Ammons and for the love media for graphics production and editing. See you soon on pod to the rescue.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Welcome to pod to the rescue.
Libby 0:11
Rescuing the dog is just the first step. We're here to help with everything that comes next. Welcome back to pod to the rescue. I'm Libby
Emily 0:21
and I'm Emily
Libby 0:22
and today we are interviewing Emily Tronetti. Emily Tronetti is a graduate with honors from the Academy for dog trainers holds a certificate in applied animal behavior from the University of Washington and a master's degree in anthrozoology from Canisius College. She is now pursuing her Doctor of Education specializing in humane education at Antioch University. Emily is also a co founder of the Humane alliance of rescue trainers heart, which matches rescues and shelters to credential trainers for behavior support at no cost. Emily did an internship with SDR back in 2018 when she was working on her master's degree and we are thrilled to have her be one of our first guests on the podcast.
Emily 1:09
It was such a great interview. We're so lucky, we got to have Emily come by.
Libby 1:13
We talk in depth about body language and how important it is for dog guardians to be able to read their dogs and understand what our dogs are telling us all the time.
Emily 1:26
Yeah, it's something that I didn't know when I got into this. But yeah, we're a verbal species and their nonverbal species. They primarily communicate through body language. And it's really important if you're going to share your life with dogs or rescue dogs to understand what they're trying to tell us. So I was really thrilled to have this conversation with Emily.
Libby 1:46
Absolutely. I think this is a must listen episode for any dog person. So we hope you enjoy it.
All right, Emily Tronetti. Welcome to pod to the rescue. Thank you so much for being here.
Emily T 2:04
Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited.
Libby 2:07
Let's jump right in. If you had one thing that you felt was the most important thing for dog guardians to know, what would that be?
Emily T 2:15
That is such a great question. So I think that dog body language is the most important thing for dog guardians, as well as professionals who work with dogs or people in in rescue work. Definitely dog's body language is the most important thing for all of us to know. There have been several studies that have found that, you know, many dog guardians don't do a great job at recognizing signs of fear, anxiety and stress in their dogs. And so when we can't tell if our dogs are stressed, this means that we might continue to put them in situations that cause them fear and anxiety. And when dogs are continually exposed to their to the things that's that make them feel fearful or stressed, there's a high risk that they'll become even more fearful and stressed, which eventually could present it like reactivity or aggression. And so by learning how to read our dog's body language, we'll be able to, you know, again, like identify when our dogs are experiencing fear, anxiety and stress will then be able to prevent those, those emotional experiences will be able to prevent fear, anxiety and stress from worsening, or escalating to aggression. And, obviously, this is so important from like a safety perspective. Of course, the safety of not only us humans, but also our dogs. But it's also really important for the just the welfare and well being of dogs. You know, I think I love all of the like, kind of dog by safety information that's out there. But one thing that I would love to see more of is how important you know learning dog body language is for our dogs welfare and well being so it's not just all about us keeping us humans safe. It's really important for our dogs to to, to understand, or for us to understand what they're telling us. And so when we can objectively observe what our dogs are experiencing, we can then make changes to their environment or to the context to make sure they feel safe and comfortable. And then we can also better identify what our dogs are enjoying and and make sure that we provide more of those, those enjoyable opportunities for them.
Libby 4:42
Oh my gosh, I love this so much. And I love what you said about it's not just about our safety, or about prevention. It's about the dog safety and well being because we know from working in shelters and rescues that a dog with a bite history is really difficult for or rescue to place. And if it's bad enough, and there are enough bites, that could be a death sentence for the dog and understanding body language and preventing it from ever getting to that point is a huge part of a dog's safety and welfare. And then the welfare piece, we know, from human studies that the effects of elevated cortisol over time is just, it can wreck our health. And so the same has got to be I don't know if there are any studies about this. And, you know, maybe you know that, that but, you know, the same must be true for our dogs that just being stressed out all the time, because you're anxious, and no one is here. No one is listening. I mean, that's not healthy for our dogs.
Emily T 5:48
Yeah, exactly. And there has been some research, like Animal Welfare Research that, you know, has found that when animals, non human animals are chronically stressed, it's very similar to, to what happens to us humans, when we're chronically stressed, it does impact us, not only emotionally, but physically as well. So, you know, there are so many reasons why it's important to understand dog's body language, it's, you know, it's not just for safety, it's not just to make sure they feel good, it's for their physical health, and, of course, their mental health. It's very, very complex. A lot of complex reasons for why this is so important. But the wonderful thing is, is that it's, it's a lot easier to learn how to speak their language. I think that and of course, obviously, there's, there is some, it can be tough to kind of understand, you know, there's a lot of, I would say, there can be some disagreement about what different things mean, in regards to dog body language. But I feel like we, especially over the last several years, we're learning a lot more about about dogs about their behavior, about their body language. And we're starting to see a bit more agreement about what different things mean, which is really nice for us, animal trainers to be able to work together. But also, it's, it's been really helpful to, to be able to more effectively educate pet guardians on how to, you know, how to understand what their dogs are saying,
Emily 7:26
you know, when you go to a foreign country, like France, you get a little phrase book, and you have just a couple of things that you know, to get around, if you were going to coach, a new person understanding, learning dog body language, what would you say would be like the top five things you would tell them to look for?
Emily T 7:44
I love that example. And I love that question. I think the idea of perceiving our interactions with our dogs, kind of in the same way of like, you know, communicating with someone who speaks a different language, I really I really like that communication. I looked this up, because I was interested in like, you know, what exactly is the definition of communication. And at least one of the definitions I found was that it's a process by which information is exchanged between individuals. And so, you know, research has shown that dogs are quite good at understanding like human communicative signals and emotional states. And so if we're to effectively communicate with them, like if we're, if we're to have that effective communication, that exchange between, you know, us and our dogs, we have to also learn what our dogs are telling us. And, yeah, I was trying to, like, identify, like, you know, what are the top three are their top five, you know, like, communication signals, everyone should know. And it's really hard to just pick one. And so are depict even just a few, because it really, there's so many different factors as to like what like, you know, depends on the context depends on the individual dog. But I would say, one thing that kind of popped in my head, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on this, I feel like the most important signal to look out for is is where the dog's body is in relation to what's happening in the environment. So distance is a primary way that dogs communicate. So for example, you know, one of my dogs is fairly sound sensitive. And so if she hears a sound that worries her, you know, let's say I'm in the kitchen and I you know, act like maybe I crank the pans a little bit too loud or something, and she'll like, leave the kitchen. And of course, you know, this sounds like painfully obvious, right? Like, of course our dogs move away from the things that are scary, but this can actually be quite subtle. Like I actually see this this kind of thing like dogs trying to create distance. I see that being missed a lot. Hot. You know, and I think there's a few reasons for this one is because, well, I would say the main reason is because dogs are often limited in their ability to move away from what's concerning them. So this could be due to them being on leash. But it also is could just be because they're pretty much always in some kind of enclosed space. And I think that we, at least one thing that I've kind of learned about dogs is I think we, we don't recognize how much like being in a room, like how small that feels to them, if that makes sense. And so, you know, I think sometimes our dogs, you know, they can't move away in the way that they want to, maybe, you know, even if we're just like, standing in the room in a way, you know, they're like, Well, there's two walls behind me, and then there's, you know, someone in front of me, I feel like I can't, I feel like I can't create the distance I want to create. So like, when I when I used to do more like dog play groups and stuff, like even just being aware of where the humans were standing in relation to, to the dogs and even just like me, like stepping, stepping in one direction to kind of give those give one dog, the, the, the ability to, you know, create that space if they need to, to feel like they can create that space is really important, it can really be that subtle. And then, you know, some dogs for whatever reason, there's, in addition to kind of the, the space, the space actually being limited, if some dogs don't walk away, but might use less obvious signals. So they might turn their body away, or maybe they just turn their head away, that like the head turns, you know, like that, looking away that kind of more avoidance that is so subtle, you know, a lot of people just don't see that. But it's very powerful. I think for dogs, it says a lot. And it could be even, that they're not even turning their whole head away, they might just be looking away, you know, that White might be when you start to see like the whale I so the whites of their eyes. And so, you know, I think with this kind of idea, like in my head, when I'm thinking about distance, you know, it could be the dog physically moving away, or it could be again, you know, looking away, when they're actually actually by turning their head or looking away just with their eyes, it's all kind of about this. I think this the dog is like just trying to create space, in whatever way they can, or at least signal to the person or other dog. Like, I would like some space.
And, you know, it's funny, I sometimes see this with my own dogs, like if I you know, try to like cuddle with them or, or pet them and they're like, you know, sometimes that into it, you know, sometimes they're like, I'm not really into cuddles right now. And that's totally okay. So, you know, and they might, you know, like my one dog, especially very now, to me, it's obvious very obviously, we'll just kind of turn her head away for me, like, I don't, I'm not, I'm not into petting right now. And that to me is like, okay, so I'm gonna give you some space. So, you know, they're always using their bodies to ask us for space. And we should respect that.
Emily 13:18
It's so interesting hearing you talk about that it makes me think about, you know, people maybe could also learn just by watching dogs interact, because dogs don't really pet each other. Or usually, like, if you're having a healthy normal dog interaction, they don't like run up and kiss each other's faces right off the bat when they're first meeting like, and they do do a lot of like head turns and you know, arched side body language. And then with humans, we do tend to like walk straight up to a dog, look them right in the eye. And if they look away, I think sometimes we can misinterpret that as like, you know, why aren't they paying attention to me, but really, that's a body language communication. They're trying to tell us something. But since we don't normally speak dog, we misinterpret it, wouldn't you say?
Emily T 14:09
Yes, absolutely. I think that we are often missing those subtle signs and and misinterpreting them as like, Oh, he's like, all the time. I hear things like oh, he's just not paying attention. So like a dog who, you know, maybe I walk up to a dog on the street to greet the dog. And I get in the dog space and try to pet them and then the dog moves away and starts sniffing and you know, their guardian might be like, oh, sorry, he's just you know, he got distracted he's just not paying attention. That's that was intentional on the dogs part. The dog was like, Oh, this is a little too much for me. I'm just I'm totally you know, giving the dog some some human emotions right now. But you know the dog that is the dog trying to communicate case that they need, they need a little bit of space, they need some time to kind of, you know, whether that's get accustomed to the situation or just again, just kind of create create that space. Because not all dogs, not all dogs want people or other dogs all alike, you know, in their face all the time. And we humans tend to, to like getting in their faces and like touching them and whatnot. And if your dog doesn't like that stuff, it's totally okay. It's totally normal. There are other ways that we can interact with our dogs that don't involve hugging them and, you know, touching them.
Emily 15:38
And I think also, if you think about it with us, humans, we have like our space bubble, meeting new people, and with dogs, we tend to not think that they do, but I'm thinking about my friends, like, it takes me a little while before I'm a hugger, or I feel comfortable, you know, having them in my real personal space. And I certainly don't think I'd want many of my friends patting my head or grabbing my face and kissing me, you know, but dogs seems like people pretty quickly go, you know, you go over to Thanksgiving, and you start petting the dog within the first 15 minutes. And then by the end, you're baby hugging it, what do you think about hugging dogs? Especially dogs? You don't know,
Emily T 16:21
I do not recommend hugging dogs, you don't know. I mean, it really all comes down to body language. You know, I think I think most often dogs don't appreciate hugging. But again, all dogs are all all dogs are individuals, you know, some dogs based on their learning history based on their experiences. Might not mind you know, petting or maybe even hugging, I would say they're probably rare, the dogs who truly don't mind hugging. I know, at least both of my dogs are not fans of hugging. They they enjoy heading, but on their terms when they when they want when they want to be pet. And I think you know, later today we're going to talk about that more like looking at, you know, how can we tell if our animals want to be touched? And you know why why that's so important to learn how to ask our pets for consent. But yeah, I think that I would just assume I would assume that that that dogs don't enjoy hugging, and and let them tell you that it's something they enjoy.
Libby 17:44
So how do you know that a dog wants to cuddle or wants to be scratched more or wants to be pet? Is there? Is there a way that dogs you know, I'm just thinking as we're having this conversation if someone a total stranger walked up to me on the street and grabbed me by this cheeks and smooched me on the face? I mean, I would call the police? You know, because I didn't consent to that. Is there a way that we can ask dogs to consent to more touch?
Emily T 18:24
That is such an important question. And I'm so so glad that we are asking this question more and more. Because I think that I mean, I mean, I remember growing up that just was never something that we talked about, like whether or not the dog wanted to be be touched. It was like we we touched the dog when we want to touch the dog. And you know, like there wasn't really wasn't this acknowledgment that animals do have a choice. But unfortunately, you know, by living in our very human world, dogs kind of inherently have limited choice and control. And so I think it's important that we that we recognize that we're aware of that because the the ability to make choices and have control over their environments over their experiences is a necessary component of you know, preventing, like negative welfare and our dogs and in promoting positive welfare positive well being in our dogs. And, you know, I think just like humans, just like all animals, dogs deserve to have choices. They deserve to say no. But you know, we can't verbally ask them for consent. And so that's why it's so important to to be able to observe their body language. So here is kind of what I recommend in terms of like a process like how can I ask my dog if they want to be touched? So So, I would first like if you're, you know, walking up to a dog or even with your own dog, and you're just hanging out at home in the living room, instead of approaching the dog, try to, like, give them the chance to approach you. And you can, of course, you know, invite them, you know, you can pet your leg or call their name and, and just, but give them the choice to approach you rather than you just going right into their space. And once they approach you, let them ask you for the type of engagement that they're looking for oftentimes, especially, you know, with the dogs that we have a close relationship with, it's pretty, we start to learn, like, what are the signs that my dog wants to play? versus what you know, what does she do when she just wants to, to have to be to be touched, you know, when she, when she wants to be touched, she might do like this, she does this really cute little pa thing. But if she wants to play she, I don't even know how to describe it, but she does this really goofy, like, like, she starts kind of huffing and puffing and play ballad and you know, it's just different. And so, you know, learning the learning about your individual dog learning how they asked for those things, and giving them the chance to ask for the type of engagement that they're looking for. You know, dogs might also if they want petting, they might kind of nudge your hand or lean into you, like a lot of the big breeds, like will do that leaning into thing. And so, you know, just kind of looking out for for signals in regards to like, you know what that dog is looking for. And then once you start petting or touching or playing with the dog, remember to stop frequently, and and make sure they're still consenting to the interaction. So you know, every few seconds or so, you just just take your hands off of them and give them a chance to, to say, Yes, keep going, or no, I'd like a break. And so you know, does the dog move closer to you by placing themselves under your hand when you take your hands away. And if so, if you're seeing those types of signals, those kinds of like keep going signals, you can continue petting, touching or playing with them. But on the other hand, if you like when you pause, petting, or play, if the dog, you know, tries to move away, or looks away, or displays other stress signals, like lip licking, or shaking off, or kind of, you know, if they all of a sudden, like walk away and start sniffing the ground, like I mentioned in my example earlier, you know, it might be that might be the dog saying I just I need a little space, I need a little time and space. So make sure the dog has the ability to create that distance if they would like so. And if and if they if they do, if they do create that distance, then you can kind of just start the process over again. So you know, let them approach you. If they do approach you, let them kind of give them the chance to ask for what they're looking for.
You can start petting them, and then again, give them a break and see and see what they what they want. Do they want more petting? Or do they want another break. And so I know that like this idea of like, when I've when I teach this to various students, and kind of different contexts I, I kind of it, you know, I think people get kind of put off by this idea of interacting with our dogs in this more like systematic way like it takes out some of the magic or something. You know, like when we're petting and interacting with our dogs, if we're like thinking about these things in this kind of systematic way. But I promise that the more that you do this, the more that you interact with your dogs this way, the more natural it feels, it just becomes how you interact with them. It doesn't become like for me, I mean, I've been doing I've been doing this for a few years now and it's not even something I think about in my head necessarily, you know, I've done it for so long and I know what to look for. It's just just how we communicate. You know, it's just like how I communicate with with my with my partner or with my family. It's not something I necessarily have to think about and process in my head. But at first it is going to feel a little different because it's new, but it's so beneficial to to interact with our dogs in this way. And there's a great video and maybe we can link to this like in the show notes there's a great video by dog kind is the the the trainer, the training organization that put this together on petting consent tests, and it just shows you you know, shows you the process it also shows you know just how natural it looks to, to be able to to interact with your dogs in this way. And then you mentioned I think you mentioned now I'm trying to remember exactly how you worded your question. But I would say that, you know, if, if you're out and about in the world with your own dog, and you have, you know, people wanting to interact with your own dog, consider how you can, can gently guide others on how to give your dog at choice. And so that that's hard, because there's a lot of social pressure to have a dog who, you know, gets a lot like, who loves people, and I know for me, you know, when I was out and about, like, walking my dog, my dog is very, you know, like, if people pay attention to her, she's like, Oh, new friend. And so, but it's very interesting. She likes to say hi to people, but she gets, as soon as they like, lean over her and start petting her and getting like, kind of in our face, you know, she, her tail starts to go down, and she starts looking away and kind of looks at me, like help me, mom. And so and so that's my cue to like, Okay, we, this interaction needs to end. And so ideally, we don't, I don't even want her in that position in the first place. And so I've started to learn how to guide people from the start on how to interact with her. So you know, I might say instead of having them come up to her and just start petting her. Obviously, this depends on your exact context, you know, walk, you might not be able to explain to someone how to do a pet and consent to us, but maybe give them something else they can do. So I might say like, oh, this is Ayla here, why don't you give her? Why don't you ask her to sit and give her a treat, you know, get, have them do something that isn't that like social pressure, like all over her touching her. Those are the things that stress her out. And so you know, just consider what your dog enjoys. You know, make sure you're watching your dog's body language throughout interactions with other people throughout your own interactions with your dog. And just make sure your dog always has the freedom and the space to create distance from people or other dogs, if they do, you know, start to get uncomfortable if they if they decide that they aren't consenting to the interaction. But yeah, I mean, it's really all about just getting to know our dogs and and, and listening to what they're saying. And, and helping them helping them out if they decide they're, they're not comfortable with it with with something.
Emily 27:25
You know, this is such great information. And I think people might say, Well, why? Why do we want to do this? You know why we've always had dogs, we never learned this. But as someone who's received the emails at Summit dog rescue for the last decade, we get asked almost every day from somebody who has a family pet that, you know, has an emergency, they need to get rid of their dog, because, quote out of the blue, never done it before, bit of you know, friend who was visiting or bid someone out on a walk, and biting seems to be, you know, the last resort for a dog and there were probably a million signals missed along the way. So if we can understand those signals along the way, we could probably prevent a lot of dog bites.
Emily T 28:12
Absolutely, for sure. I think. I mean, the, my whole kind of my whole goal with educating people about things like, you know, asking, asking dogs for consent is not only to I mean, if you're if you're taking those, that those steps, if you're, if you're like asking the dog from the beginning, like letting them approach you and letting them communicate with you all a lot like the along the way. I mean, you're giving the dog lots of opportunity to move away to say no, you know, it's, I would say a moat. I mean, of course, we probably need research on this. But I would say in most cases, a lot of dogs, you know, they're not going to feel like they need to bite because they always have the upper, you're giving the dog the opportunity to move away to create distance to say no. And I think that, you know, at least most of the baits that I've that I've been, you know, asked about are the dogs that I've worked with who have bite histories. It's because they didn't get they weren't given the option to say no. So I think when we start giving them that option, it's gonna make a huge difference and we are going to be able to decrease dog bites and we're going to be able to, to just improve the lives of our dogs which then like, I mean, just giving our dogs the ability to say no, it had it enables them to, to develop more trust in us as their guardians and in their environments because they feel like they're they have some control over their environments and And that I mean even as humans, I don't know about you, but I get really stressed when I don't feel like I'm in control. And so I think even just simple things like this, like a petting consent test, um, you know, it's, it has the ability to go even go beyond, you know, just preventing dog bites, but also, you know, improving our relationships, improving their, their mental well being and, and thus improving our own mental well being because, you know, I'm happier when my dogs are happy, that's for sure.
Emily 30:32
Right? I think last week, we interviewed Patricia McConnell, and she likened it to go into the dentist and being able to say to your dentist, like, Okay, I need a second year, you know, and then explaining the procedure and you being able to stop and interims whereas if you went into your dentist, and they like strapped you into the chair, and you had no, no choice or control, it would be a much more stressful situation. So, you know, the more we can have them feel like they have some control and choice, the happier the entire win win situation will be.
Libby 31:03
For sure, I agree. And it also just strikes me as almost a do I want to use the word ethical, like I said, that maybe it is an ethical thing, we ask our dogs to do so much for us. And we expect them to listen to us, whenever we tell them to sit, Come Leave it, whatever. And it's only fair to listen to them. When they asked for something when they asked for space when they asked for.You know, whatever it may be,
Emily T 31:34
I completely agree.
Libby 31:35
So what are some other common body language signs that people miss and their dogs?
Emily T 31:44
Yeah, so I there are quite a few. I would say like tail wagging is, is one. So I think a lot of people learn, like I know, when I was growing up, I learned that if a dog is wagging their tail, they're happy. And if their tail is tightly tucked between their legs, then the dog is scared, and you should leave them alone. But tails are much more complex than than that, you know, wagging tail can Yes, it can mean the dog is happy. But it can also mean you know, a dog is feeling a little anxious or stressed or, you know, aroused, like amped up. But um, so, you know, it's it's, it's just, I feel like they we need to learn to not hone in on just one aspect of the dog of their body language, you know, there's an entire body attached to that and tail, that's also displaying very important communicative signals. So we shouldn't just look at the tail, we should also be looking at the eyes and the ears and the muzzle and the position of their head and body. And so this is a an example of you know, why we should take into account the context that that our that our dog is in at the time. So, you know, a dog wagging their tail when their guardian gets home from work might mean something different than when that same dog wags their tail when the veterinarian walks into the exam room. You know, so there, there might be some some differences there. Yeah, so we should ask ourselves, what what's happening in the environment that might be influencing their body language and behavior. And then again, considering the individual dog in front of us, you know, some dogs have individual quirks. So we should be cautious about making, you know, kind of sweeping generalizations like all dogs are happy when they're wagging their tail, we need to be careful about making those generalizations. I just feel like it's so important to to get to know, you know, what contexts make my individual dog stressed versus you know, what contexts Do they feel good in, you know, just to get a sense of like, what our dog's baseline is, what does that look like. But then also keep in mind, just like humans, what a dog is comfortable with may vary from day to day, even minute to minute, depending on several factors. So we should always be monitoring body body language, no matter how well we know the dog. And so that's why, like, I think a good thing to keep in mind when we're talking about like, body language that we might misinterpret, you know, making sure that we're very objective about our observations, rather than kind of just jumping to you know, emotional interpretations about what our dog is feeling when they're doing XYZ. And again, taking into the car, taking into account the context, the whole like, what else is the body doing and the individual dog I can help? I think Cut down on those misinterpret misinterpretations that we might see,
Emily 35:03
that makes a lot of sense. I also think that looking at how tight their muscles are, like, if you don't have enough time to really figure out that, you know, every little body part be like is their body like loose and wiggly side to side that gives you some information and if they're really tense and their mouth is tense, you see all the muscles start to tense that some information that maybe they're not so comfortable.
Emily T 35:30
Yeah, I love that. That's, that's, I think, really helpful. And I'm so glad you brought that up, because I think that we least as like animal trainers, you know, we're we want to, like teach everyone all the things, all the little things to look for. But, you know, if we can teach, you know, the whether or not they're there, their bodies are tense versus loosen wiggly, and where in like the distance thing we mentioned earlier, like where their bodies are in relation to what's happening in their environment. I mean, we can we can, we can probably, you know, solve a lot of problems if we if everyone were aware of just those things.
Libby 36:09
I mean, it's so crucial and important and really overlooked often, I think, okay, so what resources do you recommend for people to learn more about dog body language, all of these subtle signals that we're talking about?
Emily T 36:22
I'm so glad that you asked that question. So fear free happy homes is a wonderful website with so many great resources, including some really well done videos on dog body language. And the thing I love about the site is that everything on the website is approved by a veterinary behaviorist, so you know that you're getting credible information, which is kind of hard to come by on the internet. So I highly recommend checking out fear free happy homes. And another great resource is I speak dog. It's a website, just like kind of fun, interactive website about dog body language. And then one of my colleagues, Rene Erdman, she is with Bravo dog knowledge. She has a variety of online courses, one of which is a free online course on dog body language. So it's free. And I I'm, she's wonderful. And I have no doubt that that course is amazing. So definitely check that out, too.
Libby 37:26
So once people understand body language a little bit more, how do you think guardians can incorporate that information into their daily lives with their dogs.
Emily T 37:37
So once we understand our dog's body language, it's so important to just keep observing their body language, you know, the more we observe their body language, the better we get at noticing those more subtle signals. And the more that we practice those skills, the more natural it'll start to feel. And honestly, I find it kind of fun, I feel like a little scientist, when I'm just like, noticing all the things my dog is doing, and you know, making those observations and so you know, have fun with it. And, and over time, you know, this should become a part of your daily life of your daily life, it should be a part of how we all interact with our dogs with any dog. And so I think that, you know, once once we once we develop these skills, I hope that we will start to listen to our dogs in the same way that we listen to the humans that we interact with.
Libby 38:39
Absolutely. I think that once you start paying attention, it just kind of almost opens floodgates of information that you didn't have before, and it can only enrich your relationship with your dog. I mean, we know with human relationships, that too much communication is like never a bad thing.
Emily T 39:03
Yeah, for sure it I really, truly believe that. Learning dog body language is really is the key to to having better relationships with our dogs.
Libby 39:15
So Emily behavior is often the missing piece and rescue and shelter work, which is one of the reasons we're doing this podcast, and heart sounds like an incredible resource. Can you tell us about heart and how it works?
Emily T 39:27
Yes. So heart stands for the Humane alliance of rescue trainers. And it's a nonprofit that matches shelters and rescues with credentialed professionals for training and behavior support. And we offer that support at no cost, which is so important with you know, many shelters and rescues just don't have the resources to get behavior and training support. So we really felt like this was something that was needed and all of our train nurses and behavior consultants are committed to humane forestry training, which is so important. And and so for our listeners who are involved in rescues, or, or shelters, if you need behavior support for your animals, please head to the heart website. So the link for that, which I know will include in the show notes, but really easy link, it's just rescue trainers.org. And you'll head to that website. And we have a contact page with a few different forms. And so you'll if you I would I would recommend is filling out the form to request to partner with us before you have a case to submit ideally, that way we can get started on kind of, you know, making sure that we're the right fit to partner with each other. And we also have some paperwork that we'd like you to sign. That way we can get that out of the way. And when you do need help with a specific case with a specific animal, that process can go a little bit more quickly. Now, if you do have a case already, if you're listening, and you're like I know exactly, you know this one dog or many dogs who would benefit from health, that's totally okay to you, you can submit a case before you partner with us. And then we'll just kind of go through that those initial stages of you know, getting the partner partnership process kind of in the works. And then you know, try to get you try to get that case help as soon as possible after after that. And basically how that works is once we receive a case, case requests for help, we reach out to our participating trainers to find one who is available to donate up to four sessions to help that animal. And then if you're a credentialed animal trainer and are interested in volunteering for us, please also head to our website and fill out the form to request to be a participating trainer. We would love your help we as as we're starting to grow, we're starting to get a lot more interest from shelters and rescues who who are looking for help. And so we would, you know, the more trainers that we have, the better, especially those trainers who are credentialed and committed to force free training. You know, we're really excited to be able to provide this resource to shelters and rescues and need all the help we can get to do that.
Libby 42:17
That's an incredible resource. I mean, this is amazing for rescues and shelters. So thank you for your work on that.
Emily 42:23
Yes, you right now with the pandemic, you know, starting to hopefully be behind us. There's so many dogs coming into the shelters, and rescues. So it's just great timing. And I'm so grateful that you guys are doing this.
Emily T 42:39
Yeah, thank you so much. I appreciate being able to chat about it. And I'm so so happy to have just been able to be here today and talk about body language. It's something I'm very passionate about. And it's really, really great to get this information out there to guardians.
Libby 42:57
Thank you so much. Thank you for your time. This is amazing. Thanks for tuning in. If you liked this episode, don't forget to rate and review. It helps other folks like you find the show. To find out more about our programming and adoptable rescue dogs. You can visit summit dog rescue.org thanks to Mike pesci for the original music and to Alex Lee Ammons and for the love media for graphics production and editing. See you soon on pod to the rescue.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai