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There is No Farm - Commitment to our dogs with Deb MatlockWe live in a world where humans are often viewed as the center, and our interests and desires and way of being is considered the norm. What would our world look like if we de-centered humans, and listened to the “more-than-human” voice?
Deb Matlock is today’s guest. Deb is a humane educator and holds a Masters degree in environmental education from Prescott College. She is a nature-based spiritual arts guide and mentor, animal communicator, and ecologist. She also works at Summit Dog Rescue’s working on dog behavior and bonds. Deb, Em, and Libby talk about the number one way to go into adopting a rescue animal, the massive role of commitment, and treating our animals with respect. To learn more about Deb go to www.debmatlock.com |
Episode Transcript
Emily 0:09
Welcome to pod to the rescue.
Libby 0:11
Rescuing the dog is just the first step. We're here to help with everything that comes next. Hello, everyone, and welcome back to pod to the rescue. I'm Libby.
Emily 0:22
And I'm Emily.
Libby 0:24
And we are here today with our education coordinator for some at dog rescue Deb Matlock. Hi, Deb.
Deb 0:29
Hey, there. Thanks for having me on. I'm excited.
Libby 0:32
Oh, thank you so much for doing this today. Can we start out? Just tell our listeners about yourself, and what you do and your dissertation work and all of that?
Deb 0:47
Absolutely, yeah, I've spent about 25 years working in environmental and humane education. And my passion is really about the relationship and bonding between humans and animals, humans in the natural world, humans in the world of spirit. And part of what I do for some a dog rescue is is help with creating education ideas, but also supporting our adopters. From the education side of things, you know, how do we really start to build those bonds with our with our critters? And my dissertation work is, is related to that it's actually focused on the more than human voice and the integration of the more than human voice into education programming. So for some people, that's a little out there kind of topic, but it really isn't all that out there. It's just more about how do we really communicate all the different ways we can dialogue across species, whether that's physically or telepathically or emotionally, you know? So that's it all kind of ties together?
Libby 1:43
Yeah, this more than human voice is fascinating. Can you say more about that?
Deb 1:49
Absolutely. You know, I think we live in a world where humans are often viewed as the center and our interests and our desires, and our way of being is kind of considered the norm. And then all the other species that we share the earth with, are supposed to deviate from that, including our dogs, which I know we're going to talk about today, you know, but I think that the more than human voice is when we stop and say, what if we're actually in a constant relationship with all these other species all the other life on this planet? And what if the fact that we're human is only possible because of those other relationships, you know, our language, our intellect, all the things that we've developed, you know, it's not like we, we came to be in a vacuum, we came to be on a dynamic Earth full of life. And so what I'm really intrigued by are all the different ways that everybody does interact with the other species. And I really believe everybody does communicate, whether it's telepathically or they hear messages or see visions, or it's a scent, you know, sensed thing, or, you know, people who really understand the dog language or body language or, you know, see the birds outside their window and understand when they're happy or stressed, or, you know, it's communication is a widely defined term. But I think what we need to do in all of our dealings is really say, what if we allow the other voices that are involved here to be part of the conversation. And it's not just the human side of the equation.
Libby 3:11
I love that so much. And I think that's a great place to start today's conversation. Because at pod to the rescue, that's one of our big goals is to kind of maybe talk about the ways we think dogs and making air quotes here for listeners should engage in our lives and interact with us. And we know that that doesn't always. That's not always a perfect match, you know, the way that dogs naturally interact in our environment?
Deb 3:43
Yeah, definitely. And I think the shoulds are the key piece. And I know that that working with some a dog rescue, I know, Emily's seen a whole lot of shoulds coming in from prospective adopters, or it has to be this, it has to be that. And that's a hard place to start to build a beautiful relationship between a person and a dog, or a family and a dog.
Emily 4:03
It's almost like, if we could be translators for dogs, and we could, you know, understand them more would be one of our goals with this podcast of like, how do they communicate with us? What is their body language? And what is their species specific needs that we can meet in order to have that relationship work out? In a, in a more fulfilling way for both species?
Deb 4:28
Yeah. And on top of that, what are the individual dog's personality traits and quirks and likes and dislikes? And, you know, and how can we weave all those pieces together? They're very important things that like you were saying, with the, the species needs and, and then also, here's an individual being right in front of us. You know, I just adopted this individual. You know, here's what I think I know about this particular kind of dog or whatever. But at the end of the day, it's like any other relationship, you we meet somebody in our life and we them We started a journey of getting to know each other, whether they're human or a dog or cat or whatever.
Libby 5:06
So, Deb, if we're not starting from should, where is a good place to start?
Deb 5:11
Oh, I love that question. I think open heart. I think starting with the Open Heart and saying, Okay, wow, I have this, I have this dog just adopted this dog, I fell in love with this dog. I know X, Y, or Z about this dog's history, I have some assumptions about this dog's breed or breed composition, you know. And I just want to get to know this dog, I want my heart to be open, I want my oldest dog to be able to share with me through signs and all the sorts of things that we've been talking about. And we will talk about, and you all talked about in previous episodes, but having our heart open and having our expectations be way, way down the list. You know, it's like, we may say, who I really would like to get a hiking, buddy, I really like a hiking buddy. So I'm going to adopt a dog who probably is going to dig that. But then be open to the fact that we may end up with a dog who doesn't so much dig that. But we may find that we have all these other beautiful ways we can connect and our relationship can blossom in ways that we never would have dreamed of asking for, you know, if we let our hearts be open.
Libby 6:16
Hmm. I love that so much. There's that saying that we don't always get the dog we wanted, but we get the dog we need? And I don't know, maybe sometimes but but I think you're right that if we have an open heart, we we might find something that was totally different and magical. That is not what we were expecting.
Emily 6:37
That makes me think about our application process and how we try at some a dog rescue to match people with dogs. And we do ask like, what are your must haves? And how open are you to accepting something that might not fit what your dream is? Like if a brewpub dog is what you're looking for, then I probably would not recommend you getting you know, this dog who appears to be fearful in public settings. However, could you get a dog that maybe in two or three years with a lot of work could go to a quiet brew pub? Or are you just wanting a dog that can immediately go to a brew pub, you know, and making sure that we kind of start with something that fits what the people are looking for, but also being like theirs? Are you open to the possibilities?
Deb 7:26
Yeah, and I think I think having that on the application is great. And I know when I've done interviews with prospective adopters, that's been a great conversation piece. Because that question really allows us to have an honest conversation about, about the fact that we're talking about building a relationship. It's not about ordering up a robot.
Libby 7:46
I want to ask, not everyone who's applying to adopt a rescue dog or who's going to a shelter to adopt a rescue dog gets it yet. So how do we translate, I guess this, this part of it to our potential adopters? How do we this educational aspect? I I struggle with this a lot. And I would love to hear how how we can best explain this to people? I don't know, this is a very big question. Sorry. But
Deb 8:22
I think it's a great question. It's a great question. You know, and honestly, I asked myself that a lot as well. And I think there's a few ways. But But the first is we on the rescue side of the equation, we have to know, we have to know a couple of things. And it's so easy to get frustrated with people, it's so easy to get jaded. But what I remind myself, as every single person who's coming to a rescue to adopt their dog is somebody who's choosing to rescue you know, they're, they're absolutely there's a part of them that is aware of the need of that. And so if we, if we start on that page of they're coming with a good heart, and education is something that is I think it can be life changing, which is, you know, a personal bias I have with it. But I think it's so many people have really good hearts, and it's just a little bit of help understanding where those hearts are coming from. And then the second piece is, is I often find myself saying, okay, so if I was this dog, and I put it right in human terms, and I personalize it for myself, if I'm talking to an adopter or a group of people, and I'll say, you know, if I was a dog who got dumped on the side of the road, and had been shot and or whatever these, you know, stories, we've all got all these awful stories. I absolutely know without question, that I would not be as stable as 99.9% of the dogs we see in the rescues all over the place. You know, so I tried to put it in perspectives that we can make relevant to our audience, whether it's an individual adopter, or a group of people coming to an event and say, Okay, let's all take a minute and imagine ourselves going through some of these things, and then imagine what kind of resilience and healing and recovery it would take for us to be able to trust again, to be able to start a new life. You know, even the simple even if you've got a really happy go lucky dog who doesn't seem too jaded, they're still going to move into a home where 100% of their life is new. And there's nothing familiar. And when I tell people that I see the shock looks on their faces, like, oh, my gosh, and then I say, and on top of that, what if they're the only one of their species in this 100% new environment, I mean, go to Mars, anybody want to try it out? Like I would probably be awful at it. And you know, putting it in these terms can sometimes help people go, oh, so my neighbor's dog who they've had for six years, and a super chill around all the kids and loves to do, that dog is not living in 100% new environment, after coming through a complete loss and change. So I think if we just take that time it takes to get the perspective shift. Or to invite it at least, sometimes, then I've seen people kind of light bulbs go on, and they go, Oh, my gosh, now I understand why. Blah, blah, blah, or you know, this or that. And then if they can't get the perspective change, then we question are they at the appropriate adopter for certain dog, you know, like, it may be that they aren't going to be able to handle a dog who needs somebody with that much understanding? Maybe they need somebody who's a little more stable, or, you know, maybe a dog isn't right, the right companion. I've also talked to people where they actually came to that conclusion, you know, where they're like, oh, my gosh, I didn't realize because they were operating on an idealistic view of dogs. They'd seen walking around the neighborhood that they did not know anything else about.
Libby 11:48
That's a huge moment. I mean, because you're so right, a dog is not the right companion animal for everybody. And we and you know, we and rescue say this a lot, like will read an app and say, I think you're actually looking for a cat. And we kind of joke about it. But But it's, you know, it's important, it's an important conversation. I think that so much of what you're saying is similar to conversations that Emily and I have been having behind the scenes, as we're doing this podcast, the same list of things keep coming up every single episode with every single expert we interview, it's kind of the same list of things that we need to keep in mind whenever we're talking about adopting a new rescue dog. So can we shift a little bit and maybe talk about some of these things like a little season recap because Deb, I know you've been listening. And
Emily 12:48
so one of our goals with the podcast was to have almost a toolkit for rescuers or Foster's or adopters. And we'll continue doing some of that toolkit work. But the things that we covered this season was decompression, which we once again, touched upon with Deb just now. Management with Mary Anjali was incredible. And then, you know, leaving your rescue dog home alone, how to assess that. And you know how to slowly introduce them to that. And with Chrissy Messick, I loved her going at your dog's pace. So they all seem to like dovetail together and create a fabric of a support system for a dog coming into a new home. And it's stuff that we learned over the last 1015 years of doing this, this was not stuff that we knew going into rescue. So that was our goal was to start this toolkit. And so if anyone has missed some of those episodes, you know, we we've been learning as we go how to do podcasts. So please be gracious when you start with the beginning ones. Please, please go back and take a listen to those wouldn't, wouldn't you say Libby?
Libby 14:05
Totally. And I think you know, adding to this list, we understand body language always comes up, which Deb mentioned earlier. Deb, is there anything that you would add to this list? I think the conversation about expectations is really important. But is there anything else we've missed that we should discuss whenever we're talking about integrating rescue dogs on our lives?
Deb 14:29
You know, I think an important one is the conversation about commitment. And what does that mean to people? And how far are they willing to take it because I think that that is one that it's easy to idealize and commitment sounds really easy when you're excited to get a new dog. But I think that the other piece is really understanding without going to the negative places but helping people understand commitment. It means Really awesome experiences. And if you're really lucky, it means you have a really old dog at some point who's got, you know, urinary issues and has to go outside once an hour, you know, and all the stuff in between. And making sure that folks, especially if they're new to dog life, that they really are ready for understanding what, you know, I've actually asked potential adopters to define commitment for themselves. Like, what does it mean to you and you hear this word, what comes to mind? You know, and then that gives you a place to start a conversation? And how far can they go for that commitment, because we've also all seen really good hearted kind people who don't take those steps to fully commit.
Emily 15:45
That's so interesting. And I'm thinking about it, maybe next season, one thing to talk about is like how to find a dog that aligns with your level of expectations and commitment that, you know, not that there's ever a guarantee. But you know, if your level of commitment is just due to personal circumstances, or your family life, or your work schedule isn't as like, I'm in this no matter what, then maybe you should be more, you know, thoughtful in the way you bring home a dog, a lot of people just want the immediate adoption, we find that all the time in applications, like we'll get back to them five days later, and they're like, Oh, I already got a puppy. And it's like, that's fine. If your level of commitment and expectations is quite flexible, like your expectations are flexible, and your commitment is high. But if you need to specific dog, you know, whatever that entails, then a little bit more thought and time and care should perhaps go into it might be one of the things that we discuss in our next season. With you, Deb,
Libby 16:54
I think that it's important to recognize that everyone has different priorities, and not every dog. Guardian home has the same priorities we do as like super dog nerds. But I do think it's so important as a rescue to analyze that fit. So, Deb, I would love to hear more about kind of your process and how you how you gauge that whenever you are working with potential adopters?
Deb 17:25
Yeah, I think it's it starts with what, first of all, how much of a pause did they give when we start talking about commitment? You know, like some people jump right in, and they've had lots of experience. And, and yeah, maybe they they don't live the way that would be 100,000% ideal. But to be honest, neither do I, you know, I work at home, but I don't have a farm. I don't have 67 acres for my border collie. You know, I have my you know, I live in a town where there's a lot of noise. And, you know, we all have our give and take none of us have the perfect life, right? But it's about are they willing to work within their constraints? Are they willing to say okay, I have a dog now, for example, we're recording this on July 5, right after July 4. I personally have not celebrated July 4 in over a decade because I adopted a really sensitive Border Collie 12 years ago, who can't be alone. She could probably handle it now. But I'm not going to do that to her now. So the commitment piece was this is changing, is this okay? You know, if somebody's not willing to make those changes, then then these are different questions to say, well, what is the right companion for your home? You know, what does it look like when, when things shift? Where does the dog fit into the equation? And I know on the summit dog rescue application, there's some really good questions around that. But I know that's not always in the process. I've adopted a lot of animals over the years. And that's usually not the question that I get asked, you know, when I'm the adopter side of it, I've actually walked out of a lot of adoptions and my thought has been, well, that was way too easy. You know, because I wasn't asked I, you know, I know that I'm, I'm dealing with somebody who's going to need some extra this or that. And I wasn't asked any questions about that. And nobody said to me, what's your commitment? What's your level of tolerance? What's your flexibility and so not to scare people off because I think that's the beautiful relationship building piece, you know, sitting in the bathroom singing to my dog has been some I will cherish those memories forever. But that's what we do on Fourth of July is we we sit in the bathroom because she likes that spot. And it's you know, it's part of the relationship, you know, but we just need people to understand just like with our human relationships, and you know, there's going to be those give and take moments and the commitment has to go with it. So, but how do we gauge it? It's a long process and it's not foolproof as we've we learned over and over again.
Libby 19:47
We so do i listeners know that we've been talking about a few dogs this season who have been returned to rescue or or who were a pandemic puppies who were surrendered to some a dog rescue because of any number of reasons, and it's it's sad. And I try really hard to be understanding, compassionate about the human side of it. But we, as rescuers are left picking up the pieces for these poor dogs. And maybe this is a good time to kind of bring up this phrase that Emily and I use all the time, which is there is no farm use. So often people call us and say, my dog, just bit my kid. And we recognize all the warning signs were there, the dog was over threshold, they weren't supervised, trigger stacked, whatever. And, and people say they ask us, isn't there just a farm where this dog can go run around and be an only dog and have a bunch of space and never have people over the house? And it's hard to hear that. And that's one of the reasons we wanted to start this podcast is to set dogs and their people up for success. And maybe someday we'll stop getting that question.
Emily 21:25
Yeah, that would be amazing. We get emails, I'd say five to seven times a week from people all over Colorado, who want to surrender their dogs to us. And they ask, you know, I think that this dog needs to be in a more rural area, where there are no people or no dogs, because they bid the mailman or they a bit my aunt when she came over, or they attacked a dog at the dog park. And it's it's kind of a grim chore to reply to these people like we can't, we don't have foster homes available for your dog because it has now bitten two people and you've done either no training or punishment training with. And there's, we always say like, there is no farm. Now that's not 100% True, like we have on occasion found, like these unicorn adopters. But it's hard. So really, it should be setting your dog up for success and understanding all of these aspects of bringing a dog in even if it's a puppy puppy socialization. Next season, we should definitely talk about the developmental stages of dogs. Because adolescence, Puppy hood, those are such key pieces for what you'll end up with it's social maturity, which is between two and three years old. So feel like people need more information, we're coming into this time in our human worlds where we really bring dogs into our homes as family, people who grew up in the 60s and 70s. You know, most people, their dogs just kind of roamed free and came home at night and ate dinner. But now we have these huge expectations. Our dogs are supposed to live with us like almost 24 hours a day. And there's so many things that can crop up that make it really difficult for these two species to survive, and you know, potentially, like 2000 square feet, if you're lucky.
Deb 23:30
Well, and that's why I love the idea of commitment, because it is it's it is a cultural exchange. You know, and it is it is it can be so beautiful. I mean living our lives with through the eyes, and the ears and the nose and the hearts of our dogs. I mean, I am a different person because of that, you know, and in good ways. I mean, there are beautiful things I've seen at five in the morning. You know, on a hot July day, because we're up at five in the morning to go for a walk before it's too hot. That I know I would have missed, you know, bald eagles and birds and you know, gorgeous. I mean, it's like, it's, there's so much beautiful exchange, if we allow ourselves to dissenter ourselves as humans a little bit and realize we're in this dance together. And I also say to my dogs, and it's not fair, but I am the human in the equation, and I understand the human world differently. So that's why we're going to wear this this harness and this leash. And that's why we're going to do these training, because I understand what you're going to be expected to deal with to a certain degree. But at the same time, it's if we if we don't look at our I get really frustrated. This is a pet peeve coming out the furbaby conversation. It's like, I love my animals as if they were my children, they are my family. But if we call Adult mature animals for babies forever, do we ever give them the respect of saying you're an adult being in your own species with a whole lot of experience? UN agency and deserving of a lot of respect for who you are standing here. You know, I think one of my dogs came from a reservation and her life experience is pretty impressive. I couldn't have survived all that and her dog knowledge far surpasses most happy go lucky dogs out there on the trail. But it's also a responsibility on the human side of it to understand where she's going to come from with her experience. She's not a baby, though. She's a mature being with a ton of life experience that I can only stand in respect of, and do my darn best to understand. And so I think there's a little bit there. You know, I love the idea of them being part of our family, but I think we need to not cute, edify it too much. And instead, keep it respectful. And understand that we're talking about cultures living together in a multi species world. And as much as we expect them to understand that we don't want them to pee in the house. We need to get back and understand why they're peeing in the house. You know why that territory is important? And how can we give them that opportunity? And also keep our curtains and couches from getting peed on? You know, where's the happy? Where's the respectful medium in there?
Emily 26:08
Oh, my gosh, okay, just Amen to that. That was amazing.
Libby 26:13
Yeah, I'm just I'm a little bit blown away. Deb. Thank you.
Emily 26:18
I know, I know. I feel like that too. I was just thinking of Percy, when you were saying that about the furbaby. For folks out there who haven't heard about Percy. He's a Shih Tzu that we rescued I think, four years ago now, on his like, fifth failed adoption through different rescues. And he eventually ended up at a really decent shelter that tried to adopt them out once. He was always returned for biting. And the last time he was returned was the fifth time and they were going to euthanize him. Fair enough. You know, because that's a lot of chances. Anyway, we took him because I was like, Well, how hard could could it be to adopt out a biting shitzu? Like, he was only a year old at the time. Anyway, I think he was treated like a fur baby. And yes, he just does still on occasion, by we have worked with him quite a bit. We know his signals. But I think he is so adorable. So cute. I just believe that he was bought from some puppy store somewhere in Kansas, that's where he came from, and treated like a little furbaby. And eventually, he learned like, if I bite people, they will stop treating me like a fur baby.
Deb 27:29
And no doubt he was given off the signals way before that bite. And that's where that that so powerful the education piece, then what this podcast is so important, you know, if well, meaning well intended, good hearted people were to see those early signals.
Emily 27:46
And his signals are so minuscule. So full disclosure, our family had to adopt him because we felt he was too dangerous to adopt out. You know, he's very complicated little guy and his signals, he does not growl anymore, because he was punished for growling is our supposition there. So he just, there's little like the little whiskers in his, the little beds of his whiskers get tense before he bites.
Deb 28:15
That's awesome that you know that I mean, that's the relationship that we've been talking about, you've taken the effort to know that about him. So you can see that and you can change the situation before he has to get to the point of of stress that he has to act on it. And that is like such an awesome example of what we can all do for our dogs, if we allow ourselves, the humbleness to say I have a lot to learn. Even experts, you know, every time there's a new dog, and it's a new experience, it's you know, I think that it's like every new dog I meet, I feel is almost a tumbling, because it's like, it's a new relationship. And there's new signals like that. So I love that example. And what a great thing with a gift for Percy that you know that
Emily 29:02
he's a conflicted greeter like he loves people. But then I think he has like PTSD, flashbacks for real, about whatever happened to him be stuffed into purses, or being passed around in a family of children, we just don't know.
Deb 29:15
And we're no different. And that's what we have to remember. You know, I think of every person in my life that I'm really close to, I feel like part of the relationship obligation is to understand their quirks, understand my triggers, when I'm around them, understand all those things, you know, it's just the way of it whether it's a life partner, or a good friend or family, you know, it's what we do automatically with each other. The difference is we don't often send our our friends off to farms or we don't often idealize that there's this magical little fairy cloud of farms and happy dogs, you know, to send our kids to Yeah, we might dream of that. Sometimes I've heard of people say, but they're really not going to do it, you know? Because they're going to take the next step, which is to say, Okay, how do I deal with how do I work with this behavior that my child has? exhibiting, or my partner's exhibiting, or that I'm re syncing on myself. You know, I'm very reactive when fireworks are going off for five hours, I have to know that I have to work with myself, you know, it's, but it's like, it's like, how do we do that, and stay committed to the relationship. I think that's the beauty. That's the ideal world that I personally see, and want to try to work towards. And I know, I'm not kidding myself, I'm 50. I'm not going to see that in my lifetime, but I am going to die trying.
Emily 30:29
And with, you know, circling back to the podcast, there's so much misinformation out there about dogs, unlike with humans, I feel like it's pretty easy. We know like, if your child is struggling, you talk to your pediatrician, and they will send you in the most current scientific direction. Unfortunately, if you ask your vet, they might send you to an unqualified dominance trainer who is using completely outdated science or worse yet, just mythology to train dogs. And so just the catch up, I as my, you know, training profession just saw some, like the most lovely family over the weekend, and they have a fearful five month old shepherd mix. And because it was fearful, they were taking it to farmers markets, and like a brew pub, to try to socialize it. And these people have the best intentions. And they just didn't know. So, you know, to circle back, one of our goals is to just give give people the latest updated science on how to support your dog, because I think 95% of the people out there have the best intentions, and the wrong information, or you know, not 95% of the wrong information, but 95% have the best intentions, but don't know where to go for information. Because it's so murky.
Deb 31:56
And that's where the humbleness comes to come in on our site as well. You know, I will fully admit, I mean, I was started training dogs in the 70s, early 80s. And the only thing that happened back then was choke chains. I shudder, I have apologized to the spirits of dogs that have gone on. You know, I was a kid, I did not know, it was the only thing you went to the fairgrounds and you did this training, you know, we have to also understand that every one of us has a learning curve. And we always will, I guarantee I'll look forward 10 years from now at things I did with my dogs today. And I'll be like, Oh my gosh, you know, as the science continues to grow, and as my experience grows, and as I meet more and more dogs, so we also have to approach just like we said earlier, people coming to rescue to rescue a dog or coming with a good heart, in most cases. And so also, you know, that's where education can play such a great role is if we start with the good heart and say, here's an idea for a different way to do that. Instead of hitting your dog because they peed in the house and you haven't let them out in eight hours. Let's talk about what we could do instead, you know, you know and not jumping. And I think that what happens a lot in rescue as rescue sees rescue people see the dark side, they see the trenches, like you were talking about they see the underbelly. And it's hard not to generalize that to all the people. Well, are we that different from dogs, then, if we're trying, you know, we're asking them not to generalize that every man wearing a hat is gonna be the one that kicked you, you know, we've got it, we've got to walk our talk and say, I can't generalize this either, even though I'm fatigued, and I've seen too much, you know, and that's where I think we can keep ourselves in check a little bit. And it's hard and I don't see it the same way. Like, you know, Emily, I'm not the one that gets inundated with all the emails every week. And I tell you constantly that I'm amazed and you are a rock star, because you can handle that, you know, but it's it's one of those things where we are so similar creatures, and that's one of the ways our cultures are I think we are similar to dogs is that behaviorally, we can be patterned on something as well.
Emily 34:01
It's so true. I always go back to Maya Angelou is like when you know better you do better because just 10 years ago, when I brought home puppies, I would call the neighbors and say, Hey, I got puppies. I'm fostering puppies don't come meet them or Yeah, and I you know, 20 years ago did the rub your nose in it? When I got a puppy? I asked folks, what do I What do I do? He's peeing and pooping. And they were like, rub his nose in it. I'm mortified and definitely would send you know, prayers for Him to forgive me for that. But that's all I knew.
Deb 34:33
Well, the rolled up newspapers people still do that. It's though thinking that it's great because they're not hitting their dog. That's what I grew up with seeing all around me. It's nauseating. I can't even fathom it today. But those were good good hearted people who were trying not to hit their dog like it wasn't coming from an evil place. It was coming from a tragically uninformed and that's where behavior science is so exciting now, and I think it's it's there's good momentum in that And so, you know, professionals and rescuers and volunteer for us to stay as up to speed as we can, and then share it through things like this podcast. You know, I think that's the conversation that needs to keep happening. It's just what everyone is learning.
Emily 35:13
Oh, God, I love that I was tragically uninformed. And I feel like I was super privileged enough to be able to learn more. I don't know everything, that's for sure. But I've learned a lot through the rescue in the past decade or so.
Deb 35:28
And I think the cool thing is, as humans, we have to go our entire life saying, I don't know everything, we always have to have a part of us that is curious, because that's what's gonna keep driving the research, driving the questions driving all of us as individuals to do a better job with the the dogs that we have in our in our care, whether they're in our homes or in our rescues, or shelters, we have to always say, I don't know everything. And I will never know everything. So let me stay curious. And let me let this dog teach me.
Libby 35:58
I want to circle back to something you mentioned briefly. But I would really love your perspective on this. You said something about in dog training, there's nothing like dog training to bring up people's egos. Why do you think that is?
Deb 36:14
You know, that's a fascinating question. I've asked myself, over the time, over the years, when I've done things like agility, or canine freestyle with my dogs, or, and I get in these environments where all of a sudden, it's like, oh, my gosh, this is so cutthroat, I thought we were just having fun with our dogs in here. You know, I think it's, I think there's a lot of things that it could be, and I'm not a psychologist, so I'm speculating. But I'm going to compare it to something I did for a lot of years was teach dance, to humans. And there was theater parents, you know, which we were the stage door, they were always there, they were standing. And they were like, you know, in rehearsal, kind of poking and yelling at their kids, it got so extreme that I actually had to close the curtains on the windows, and I allowed parents to watch once every season, like once every three months, because the kids would get so stressed out, parents wanting the kids to behave, it's like an ego fulfillment thing or something. And I've wondered, Is there a little bit of that with the dog world? Like, I'm the reflection of me is how my dog behaves. You know, and I work with clients. And I've heard a lot of people say, Well, I'm so embarrassed, because I have the super sweet little dog who gets reactive in parks. And so everybody else's dogs can go to the soccer games, and my dog can't, and I'm so embarrassed. I've heard that over and over again. And so I think we somehow tie our sense of self, our sense of accomplishment, you know, to our dog's behavior. And, and I've even felt that sometimes, you know, where it's like, oh, I'm walking, my dog just went totally crazy over something, a trigger that I totally missed somehow. And now I'm getting control back and the person over there with the prong collar is looking at me, like, I don't know what I'm doing. But it's like, I actually do have control, my dog is still smiling. It just took a second because I missed the trigger. I felt like a failure my egos in it. You know, and I think what we have to do as humans is our own personal work of saying, Okay, we've all got egos that do great things for us, and that we've all got egos that have our trigger points and are fragile in certain ways. It's part of being human. And so how do we consciously be aware of that, and say, I'm not gonna put that on my poor dog who I just adopted, and is suddenly not going to be happy at a dog park. You know, and, and now I feel like I'm a loser, because my dog won't go to a dog park, you know, so we have to, we have to, we have to own our stuff. And be curious about our own development. You know, I think that's part of the like being on earth is that we're all growing all the time. And we've all got these valuable parts of ourselves. But I've seen in places also where people aren't, you know, their height, I've seen high competitors in agility rings, who are so separated from their ego, and they're so in it for their dog. And what happens is this beautiful, their dog is smiling and happy, and everyone's enjoying it. And if they win, great, and if they don't, they hug and kiss and have treats anyways. And it's so cool. Like, what we can have if we get out of our own way, is that kind of thing. And knowing that someday, we're going to have one dog and the next day, just like us, our dog might be in a different mood, and we might not have the dog that was behaving the same way the day before. And it's all cool.
Libby 39:20
I love that. I love the story of agility and doing it for the dog. And yeah, I think it's really cool when people can put that aside and recognize, okay, maybe there's something, something I'm doing isn't working for my dog, and maybe I wanted it to work out but it's not and that's okay. And it's just a really beautiful thing.
Deb 39:45
And remembering that our dogs are individuals, and that there's not going to be the same. Just because they were one way one day at the same Trailhead doesn't mean the very next day, that same Trailhead might bring out a whole different part of the dog, you know, and the squirrel runs by and It's a different trigger. And now we have a different brain going on in our dog. It's just like us. I mean, I'm that way, you know, the same day can set off different things.
Libby 40:09
Totally. Maybe your dog didn't even want to be at the trailhead that day. But, you know, you're so intent on getting out the door, I fall into that trap sometimes like, okay, it's Friday, we got to do our usual Friday walk, we gotta go, we gotta go. And then every once in a while, I realize, oh, oh, Daisy is not into this. And I almost just, like, dragged her into the truck. And oh, that's it. We can be couch potatoes today. Like, that's okay. But you're so right. It has to start with that understanding how to communicate, and, and being open to the idea that what I am expecting to hear might not be what I actually hear.
Deb 40:49
I know I want to go to dinner, but my partner wants Mexican food and I want Italian food, does it mean that we're no longer a fit? No, it just means that we're gonna have to decide, you know, maybe we're not having Mexican food or Italian food tonight. Maybe we're doing something else. You know, maybe it's okay.
Libby 41:06
Maybe it's okay. Whatever happens, maybe it's okay.
Emily 41:09
What a great conversation with you, Deb. I think we need to drag you in more once you finish your dissertation.
Deb 41:17
Well, it was fun to do this. I'm really looking forward to seeing how this podcast continues to to grow and I'm really excited to see the traction it's getting and it's super important.
Libby 41:34
Thanks for tuning in. If you liked this episode, don't forget to rate and review. It helps other folks like you find the show. To find out more about our programming and adoptable rescue dogs, you can visit summit dog rescue.org thanks to Mike pesci for the original music and to Alex Lee Ammons and for the love media for graphics production and editing. See you soon on pod to the rescue.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Welcome to pod to the rescue.
Libby 0:11
Rescuing the dog is just the first step. We're here to help with everything that comes next. Hello, everyone, and welcome back to pod to the rescue. I'm Libby.
Emily 0:22
And I'm Emily.
Libby 0:24
And we are here today with our education coordinator for some at dog rescue Deb Matlock. Hi, Deb.
Deb 0:29
Hey, there. Thanks for having me on. I'm excited.
Libby 0:32
Oh, thank you so much for doing this today. Can we start out? Just tell our listeners about yourself, and what you do and your dissertation work and all of that?
Deb 0:47
Absolutely, yeah, I've spent about 25 years working in environmental and humane education. And my passion is really about the relationship and bonding between humans and animals, humans in the natural world, humans in the world of spirit. And part of what I do for some a dog rescue is is help with creating education ideas, but also supporting our adopters. From the education side of things, you know, how do we really start to build those bonds with our with our critters? And my dissertation work is, is related to that it's actually focused on the more than human voice and the integration of the more than human voice into education programming. So for some people, that's a little out there kind of topic, but it really isn't all that out there. It's just more about how do we really communicate all the different ways we can dialogue across species, whether that's physically or telepathically or emotionally, you know? So that's it all kind of ties together?
Libby 1:43
Yeah, this more than human voice is fascinating. Can you say more about that?
Deb 1:49
Absolutely. You know, I think we live in a world where humans are often viewed as the center and our interests and our desires, and our way of being is kind of considered the norm. And then all the other species that we share the earth with, are supposed to deviate from that, including our dogs, which I know we're going to talk about today, you know, but I think that the more than human voice is when we stop and say, what if we're actually in a constant relationship with all these other species all the other life on this planet? And what if the fact that we're human is only possible because of those other relationships, you know, our language, our intellect, all the things that we've developed, you know, it's not like we, we came to be in a vacuum, we came to be on a dynamic Earth full of life. And so what I'm really intrigued by are all the different ways that everybody does interact with the other species. And I really believe everybody does communicate, whether it's telepathically or they hear messages or see visions, or it's a scent, you know, sensed thing, or, you know, people who really understand the dog language or body language or, you know, see the birds outside their window and understand when they're happy or stressed, or, you know, it's communication is a widely defined term. But I think what we need to do in all of our dealings is really say, what if we allow the other voices that are involved here to be part of the conversation. And it's not just the human side of the equation.
Libby 3:11
I love that so much. And I think that's a great place to start today's conversation. Because at pod to the rescue, that's one of our big goals is to kind of maybe talk about the ways we think dogs and making air quotes here for listeners should engage in our lives and interact with us. And we know that that doesn't always. That's not always a perfect match, you know, the way that dogs naturally interact in our environment?
Deb 3:43
Yeah, definitely. And I think the shoulds are the key piece. And I know that that working with some a dog rescue, I know, Emily's seen a whole lot of shoulds coming in from prospective adopters, or it has to be this, it has to be that. And that's a hard place to start to build a beautiful relationship between a person and a dog, or a family and a dog.
Emily 4:03
It's almost like, if we could be translators for dogs, and we could, you know, understand them more would be one of our goals with this podcast of like, how do they communicate with us? What is their body language? And what is their species specific needs that we can meet in order to have that relationship work out? In a, in a more fulfilling way for both species?
Deb 4:28
Yeah. And on top of that, what are the individual dog's personality traits and quirks and likes and dislikes? And, you know, and how can we weave all those pieces together? They're very important things that like you were saying, with the, the species needs and, and then also, here's an individual being right in front of us. You know, I just adopted this individual. You know, here's what I think I know about this particular kind of dog or whatever. But at the end of the day, it's like any other relationship, you we meet somebody in our life and we them We started a journey of getting to know each other, whether they're human or a dog or cat or whatever.
Libby 5:06
So, Deb, if we're not starting from should, where is a good place to start?
Deb 5:11
Oh, I love that question. I think open heart. I think starting with the Open Heart and saying, Okay, wow, I have this, I have this dog just adopted this dog, I fell in love with this dog. I know X, Y, or Z about this dog's history, I have some assumptions about this dog's breed or breed composition, you know. And I just want to get to know this dog, I want my heart to be open, I want my oldest dog to be able to share with me through signs and all the sorts of things that we've been talking about. And we will talk about, and you all talked about in previous episodes, but having our heart open and having our expectations be way, way down the list. You know, it's like, we may say, who I really would like to get a hiking, buddy, I really like a hiking buddy. So I'm going to adopt a dog who probably is going to dig that. But then be open to the fact that we may end up with a dog who doesn't so much dig that. But we may find that we have all these other beautiful ways we can connect and our relationship can blossom in ways that we never would have dreamed of asking for, you know, if we let our hearts be open.
Libby 6:16
Hmm. I love that so much. There's that saying that we don't always get the dog we wanted, but we get the dog we need? And I don't know, maybe sometimes but but I think you're right that if we have an open heart, we we might find something that was totally different and magical. That is not what we were expecting.
Emily 6:37
That makes me think about our application process and how we try at some a dog rescue to match people with dogs. And we do ask like, what are your must haves? And how open are you to accepting something that might not fit what your dream is? Like if a brewpub dog is what you're looking for, then I probably would not recommend you getting you know, this dog who appears to be fearful in public settings. However, could you get a dog that maybe in two or three years with a lot of work could go to a quiet brew pub? Or are you just wanting a dog that can immediately go to a brew pub, you know, and making sure that we kind of start with something that fits what the people are looking for, but also being like theirs? Are you open to the possibilities?
Deb 7:26
Yeah, and I think I think having that on the application is great. And I know when I've done interviews with prospective adopters, that's been a great conversation piece. Because that question really allows us to have an honest conversation about, about the fact that we're talking about building a relationship. It's not about ordering up a robot.
Libby 7:46
I want to ask, not everyone who's applying to adopt a rescue dog or who's going to a shelter to adopt a rescue dog gets it yet. So how do we translate, I guess this, this part of it to our potential adopters? How do we this educational aspect? I I struggle with this a lot. And I would love to hear how how we can best explain this to people? I don't know, this is a very big question. Sorry. But
Deb 8:22
I think it's a great question. It's a great question. You know, and honestly, I asked myself that a lot as well. And I think there's a few ways. But But the first is we on the rescue side of the equation, we have to know, we have to know a couple of things. And it's so easy to get frustrated with people, it's so easy to get jaded. But what I remind myself, as every single person who's coming to a rescue to adopt their dog is somebody who's choosing to rescue you know, they're, they're absolutely there's a part of them that is aware of the need of that. And so if we, if we start on that page of they're coming with a good heart, and education is something that is I think it can be life changing, which is, you know, a personal bias I have with it. But I think it's so many people have really good hearts, and it's just a little bit of help understanding where those hearts are coming from. And then the second piece is, is I often find myself saying, okay, so if I was this dog, and I put it right in human terms, and I personalize it for myself, if I'm talking to an adopter or a group of people, and I'll say, you know, if I was a dog who got dumped on the side of the road, and had been shot and or whatever these, you know, stories, we've all got all these awful stories. I absolutely know without question, that I would not be as stable as 99.9% of the dogs we see in the rescues all over the place. You know, so I tried to put it in perspectives that we can make relevant to our audience, whether it's an individual adopter, or a group of people coming to an event and say, Okay, let's all take a minute and imagine ourselves going through some of these things, and then imagine what kind of resilience and healing and recovery it would take for us to be able to trust again, to be able to start a new life. You know, even the simple even if you've got a really happy go lucky dog who doesn't seem too jaded, they're still going to move into a home where 100% of their life is new. And there's nothing familiar. And when I tell people that I see the shock looks on their faces, like, oh, my gosh, and then I say, and on top of that, what if they're the only one of their species in this 100% new environment, I mean, go to Mars, anybody want to try it out? Like I would probably be awful at it. And you know, putting it in these terms can sometimes help people go, oh, so my neighbor's dog who they've had for six years, and a super chill around all the kids and loves to do, that dog is not living in 100% new environment, after coming through a complete loss and change. So I think if we just take that time it takes to get the perspective shift. Or to invite it at least, sometimes, then I've seen people kind of light bulbs go on, and they go, Oh, my gosh, now I understand why. Blah, blah, blah, or you know, this or that. And then if they can't get the perspective change, then we question are they at the appropriate adopter for certain dog, you know, like, it may be that they aren't going to be able to handle a dog who needs somebody with that much understanding? Maybe they need somebody who's a little more stable, or, you know, maybe a dog isn't right, the right companion. I've also talked to people where they actually came to that conclusion, you know, where they're like, oh, my gosh, I didn't realize because they were operating on an idealistic view of dogs. They'd seen walking around the neighborhood that they did not know anything else about.
Libby 11:48
That's a huge moment. I mean, because you're so right, a dog is not the right companion animal for everybody. And we and you know, we and rescue say this a lot, like will read an app and say, I think you're actually looking for a cat. And we kind of joke about it. But But it's, you know, it's important, it's an important conversation. I think that so much of what you're saying is similar to conversations that Emily and I have been having behind the scenes, as we're doing this podcast, the same list of things keep coming up every single episode with every single expert we interview, it's kind of the same list of things that we need to keep in mind whenever we're talking about adopting a new rescue dog. So can we shift a little bit and maybe talk about some of these things like a little season recap because Deb, I know you've been listening. And
Emily 12:48
so one of our goals with the podcast was to have almost a toolkit for rescuers or Foster's or adopters. And we'll continue doing some of that toolkit work. But the things that we covered this season was decompression, which we once again, touched upon with Deb just now. Management with Mary Anjali was incredible. And then, you know, leaving your rescue dog home alone, how to assess that. And you know how to slowly introduce them to that. And with Chrissy Messick, I loved her going at your dog's pace. So they all seem to like dovetail together and create a fabric of a support system for a dog coming into a new home. And it's stuff that we learned over the last 1015 years of doing this, this was not stuff that we knew going into rescue. So that was our goal was to start this toolkit. And so if anyone has missed some of those episodes, you know, we we've been learning as we go how to do podcasts. So please be gracious when you start with the beginning ones. Please, please go back and take a listen to those wouldn't, wouldn't you say Libby?
Libby 14:05
Totally. And I think you know, adding to this list, we understand body language always comes up, which Deb mentioned earlier. Deb, is there anything that you would add to this list? I think the conversation about expectations is really important. But is there anything else we've missed that we should discuss whenever we're talking about integrating rescue dogs on our lives?
Deb 14:29
You know, I think an important one is the conversation about commitment. And what does that mean to people? And how far are they willing to take it because I think that that is one that it's easy to idealize and commitment sounds really easy when you're excited to get a new dog. But I think that the other piece is really understanding without going to the negative places but helping people understand commitment. It means Really awesome experiences. And if you're really lucky, it means you have a really old dog at some point who's got, you know, urinary issues and has to go outside once an hour, you know, and all the stuff in between. And making sure that folks, especially if they're new to dog life, that they really are ready for understanding what, you know, I've actually asked potential adopters to define commitment for themselves. Like, what does it mean to you and you hear this word, what comes to mind? You know, and then that gives you a place to start a conversation? And how far can they go for that commitment, because we've also all seen really good hearted kind people who don't take those steps to fully commit.
Emily 15:45
That's so interesting. And I'm thinking about it, maybe next season, one thing to talk about is like how to find a dog that aligns with your level of expectations and commitment that, you know, not that there's ever a guarantee. But you know, if your level of commitment is just due to personal circumstances, or your family life, or your work schedule isn't as like, I'm in this no matter what, then maybe you should be more, you know, thoughtful in the way you bring home a dog, a lot of people just want the immediate adoption, we find that all the time in applications, like we'll get back to them five days later, and they're like, Oh, I already got a puppy. And it's like, that's fine. If your level of commitment and expectations is quite flexible, like your expectations are flexible, and your commitment is high. But if you need to specific dog, you know, whatever that entails, then a little bit more thought and time and care should perhaps go into it might be one of the things that we discuss in our next season. With you, Deb,
Libby 16:54
I think that it's important to recognize that everyone has different priorities, and not every dog. Guardian home has the same priorities we do as like super dog nerds. But I do think it's so important as a rescue to analyze that fit. So, Deb, I would love to hear more about kind of your process and how you how you gauge that whenever you are working with potential adopters?
Deb 17:25
Yeah, I think it's it starts with what, first of all, how much of a pause did they give when we start talking about commitment? You know, like some people jump right in, and they've had lots of experience. And, and yeah, maybe they they don't live the way that would be 100,000% ideal. But to be honest, neither do I, you know, I work at home, but I don't have a farm. I don't have 67 acres for my border collie. You know, I have my you know, I live in a town where there's a lot of noise. And, you know, we all have our give and take none of us have the perfect life, right? But it's about are they willing to work within their constraints? Are they willing to say okay, I have a dog now, for example, we're recording this on July 5, right after July 4. I personally have not celebrated July 4 in over a decade because I adopted a really sensitive Border Collie 12 years ago, who can't be alone. She could probably handle it now. But I'm not going to do that to her now. So the commitment piece was this is changing, is this okay? You know, if somebody's not willing to make those changes, then then these are different questions to say, well, what is the right companion for your home? You know, what does it look like when, when things shift? Where does the dog fit into the equation? And I know on the summit dog rescue application, there's some really good questions around that. But I know that's not always in the process. I've adopted a lot of animals over the years. And that's usually not the question that I get asked, you know, when I'm the adopter side of it, I've actually walked out of a lot of adoptions and my thought has been, well, that was way too easy. You know, because I wasn't asked I, you know, I know that I'm, I'm dealing with somebody who's going to need some extra this or that. And I wasn't asked any questions about that. And nobody said to me, what's your commitment? What's your level of tolerance? What's your flexibility and so not to scare people off because I think that's the beautiful relationship building piece, you know, sitting in the bathroom singing to my dog has been some I will cherish those memories forever. But that's what we do on Fourth of July is we we sit in the bathroom because she likes that spot. And it's you know, it's part of the relationship, you know, but we just need people to understand just like with our human relationships, and you know, there's going to be those give and take moments and the commitment has to go with it. So, but how do we gauge it? It's a long process and it's not foolproof as we've we learned over and over again.
Libby 19:47
We so do i listeners know that we've been talking about a few dogs this season who have been returned to rescue or or who were a pandemic puppies who were surrendered to some a dog rescue because of any number of reasons, and it's it's sad. And I try really hard to be understanding, compassionate about the human side of it. But we, as rescuers are left picking up the pieces for these poor dogs. And maybe this is a good time to kind of bring up this phrase that Emily and I use all the time, which is there is no farm use. So often people call us and say, my dog, just bit my kid. And we recognize all the warning signs were there, the dog was over threshold, they weren't supervised, trigger stacked, whatever. And, and people say they ask us, isn't there just a farm where this dog can go run around and be an only dog and have a bunch of space and never have people over the house? And it's hard to hear that. And that's one of the reasons we wanted to start this podcast is to set dogs and their people up for success. And maybe someday we'll stop getting that question.
Emily 21:25
Yeah, that would be amazing. We get emails, I'd say five to seven times a week from people all over Colorado, who want to surrender their dogs to us. And they ask, you know, I think that this dog needs to be in a more rural area, where there are no people or no dogs, because they bid the mailman or they a bit my aunt when she came over, or they attacked a dog at the dog park. And it's it's kind of a grim chore to reply to these people like we can't, we don't have foster homes available for your dog because it has now bitten two people and you've done either no training or punishment training with. And there's, we always say like, there is no farm. Now that's not 100% True, like we have on occasion found, like these unicorn adopters. But it's hard. So really, it should be setting your dog up for success and understanding all of these aspects of bringing a dog in even if it's a puppy puppy socialization. Next season, we should definitely talk about the developmental stages of dogs. Because adolescence, Puppy hood, those are such key pieces for what you'll end up with it's social maturity, which is between two and three years old. So feel like people need more information, we're coming into this time in our human worlds where we really bring dogs into our homes as family, people who grew up in the 60s and 70s. You know, most people, their dogs just kind of roamed free and came home at night and ate dinner. But now we have these huge expectations. Our dogs are supposed to live with us like almost 24 hours a day. And there's so many things that can crop up that make it really difficult for these two species to survive, and you know, potentially, like 2000 square feet, if you're lucky.
Deb 23:30
Well, and that's why I love the idea of commitment, because it is it's it is a cultural exchange. You know, and it is it is it can be so beautiful. I mean living our lives with through the eyes, and the ears and the nose and the hearts of our dogs. I mean, I am a different person because of that, you know, and in good ways. I mean, there are beautiful things I've seen at five in the morning. You know, on a hot July day, because we're up at five in the morning to go for a walk before it's too hot. That I know I would have missed, you know, bald eagles and birds and you know, gorgeous. I mean, it's like, it's, there's so much beautiful exchange, if we allow ourselves to dissenter ourselves as humans a little bit and realize we're in this dance together. And I also say to my dogs, and it's not fair, but I am the human in the equation, and I understand the human world differently. So that's why we're going to wear this this harness and this leash. And that's why we're going to do these training, because I understand what you're going to be expected to deal with to a certain degree. But at the same time, it's if we if we don't look at our I get really frustrated. This is a pet peeve coming out the furbaby conversation. It's like, I love my animals as if they were my children, they are my family. But if we call Adult mature animals for babies forever, do we ever give them the respect of saying you're an adult being in your own species with a whole lot of experience? UN agency and deserving of a lot of respect for who you are standing here. You know, I think one of my dogs came from a reservation and her life experience is pretty impressive. I couldn't have survived all that and her dog knowledge far surpasses most happy go lucky dogs out there on the trail. But it's also a responsibility on the human side of it to understand where she's going to come from with her experience. She's not a baby, though. She's a mature being with a ton of life experience that I can only stand in respect of, and do my darn best to understand. And so I think there's a little bit there. You know, I love the idea of them being part of our family, but I think we need to not cute, edify it too much. And instead, keep it respectful. And understand that we're talking about cultures living together in a multi species world. And as much as we expect them to understand that we don't want them to pee in the house. We need to get back and understand why they're peeing in the house. You know why that territory is important? And how can we give them that opportunity? And also keep our curtains and couches from getting peed on? You know, where's the happy? Where's the respectful medium in there?
Emily 26:08
Oh, my gosh, okay, just Amen to that. That was amazing.
Libby 26:13
Yeah, I'm just I'm a little bit blown away. Deb. Thank you.
Emily 26:18
I know, I know. I feel like that too. I was just thinking of Percy, when you were saying that about the furbaby. For folks out there who haven't heard about Percy. He's a Shih Tzu that we rescued I think, four years ago now, on his like, fifth failed adoption through different rescues. And he eventually ended up at a really decent shelter that tried to adopt them out once. He was always returned for biting. And the last time he was returned was the fifth time and they were going to euthanize him. Fair enough. You know, because that's a lot of chances. Anyway, we took him because I was like, Well, how hard could could it be to adopt out a biting shitzu? Like, he was only a year old at the time. Anyway, I think he was treated like a fur baby. And yes, he just does still on occasion, by we have worked with him quite a bit. We know his signals. But I think he is so adorable. So cute. I just believe that he was bought from some puppy store somewhere in Kansas, that's where he came from, and treated like a little furbaby. And eventually, he learned like, if I bite people, they will stop treating me like a fur baby.
Deb 27:29
And no doubt he was given off the signals way before that bite. And that's where that that so powerful the education piece, then what this podcast is so important, you know, if well, meaning well intended, good hearted people were to see those early signals.
Emily 27:46
And his signals are so minuscule. So full disclosure, our family had to adopt him because we felt he was too dangerous to adopt out. You know, he's very complicated little guy and his signals, he does not growl anymore, because he was punished for growling is our supposition there. So he just, there's little like the little whiskers in his, the little beds of his whiskers get tense before he bites.
Deb 28:15
That's awesome that you know that I mean, that's the relationship that we've been talking about, you've taken the effort to know that about him. So you can see that and you can change the situation before he has to get to the point of of stress that he has to act on it. And that is like such an awesome example of what we can all do for our dogs, if we allow ourselves, the humbleness to say I have a lot to learn. Even experts, you know, every time there's a new dog, and it's a new experience, it's you know, I think that it's like every new dog I meet, I feel is almost a tumbling, because it's like, it's a new relationship. And there's new signals like that. So I love that example. And what a great thing with a gift for Percy that you know that
Emily 29:02
he's a conflicted greeter like he loves people. But then I think he has like PTSD, flashbacks for real, about whatever happened to him be stuffed into purses, or being passed around in a family of children, we just don't know.
Deb 29:15
And we're no different. And that's what we have to remember. You know, I think of every person in my life that I'm really close to, I feel like part of the relationship obligation is to understand their quirks, understand my triggers, when I'm around them, understand all those things, you know, it's just the way of it whether it's a life partner, or a good friend or family, you know, it's what we do automatically with each other. The difference is we don't often send our our friends off to farms or we don't often idealize that there's this magical little fairy cloud of farms and happy dogs, you know, to send our kids to Yeah, we might dream of that. Sometimes I've heard of people say, but they're really not going to do it, you know? Because they're going to take the next step, which is to say, Okay, how do I deal with how do I work with this behavior that my child has? exhibiting, or my partner's exhibiting, or that I'm re syncing on myself. You know, I'm very reactive when fireworks are going off for five hours, I have to know that I have to work with myself, you know, it's, but it's like, it's like, how do we do that, and stay committed to the relationship. I think that's the beauty. That's the ideal world that I personally see, and want to try to work towards. And I know, I'm not kidding myself, I'm 50. I'm not going to see that in my lifetime, but I am going to die trying.
Emily 30:29
And with, you know, circling back to the podcast, there's so much misinformation out there about dogs, unlike with humans, I feel like it's pretty easy. We know like, if your child is struggling, you talk to your pediatrician, and they will send you in the most current scientific direction. Unfortunately, if you ask your vet, they might send you to an unqualified dominance trainer who is using completely outdated science or worse yet, just mythology to train dogs. And so just the catch up, I as my, you know, training profession just saw some, like the most lovely family over the weekend, and they have a fearful five month old shepherd mix. And because it was fearful, they were taking it to farmers markets, and like a brew pub, to try to socialize it. And these people have the best intentions. And they just didn't know. So, you know, to circle back, one of our goals is to just give give people the latest updated science on how to support your dog, because I think 95% of the people out there have the best intentions, and the wrong information, or you know, not 95% of the wrong information, but 95% have the best intentions, but don't know where to go for information. Because it's so murky.
Deb 31:56
And that's where the humbleness comes to come in on our site as well. You know, I will fully admit, I mean, I was started training dogs in the 70s, early 80s. And the only thing that happened back then was choke chains. I shudder, I have apologized to the spirits of dogs that have gone on. You know, I was a kid, I did not know, it was the only thing you went to the fairgrounds and you did this training, you know, we have to also understand that every one of us has a learning curve. And we always will, I guarantee I'll look forward 10 years from now at things I did with my dogs today. And I'll be like, Oh my gosh, you know, as the science continues to grow, and as my experience grows, and as I meet more and more dogs, so we also have to approach just like we said earlier, people coming to rescue to rescue a dog or coming with a good heart, in most cases. And so also, you know, that's where education can play such a great role is if we start with the good heart and say, here's an idea for a different way to do that. Instead of hitting your dog because they peed in the house and you haven't let them out in eight hours. Let's talk about what we could do instead, you know, you know and not jumping. And I think that what happens a lot in rescue as rescue sees rescue people see the dark side, they see the trenches, like you were talking about they see the underbelly. And it's hard not to generalize that to all the people. Well, are we that different from dogs, then, if we're trying, you know, we're asking them not to generalize that every man wearing a hat is gonna be the one that kicked you, you know, we've got it, we've got to walk our talk and say, I can't generalize this either, even though I'm fatigued, and I've seen too much, you know, and that's where I think we can keep ourselves in check a little bit. And it's hard and I don't see it the same way. Like, you know, Emily, I'm not the one that gets inundated with all the emails every week. And I tell you constantly that I'm amazed and you are a rock star, because you can handle that, you know, but it's it's one of those things where we are so similar creatures, and that's one of the ways our cultures are I think we are similar to dogs is that behaviorally, we can be patterned on something as well.
Emily 34:01
It's so true. I always go back to Maya Angelou is like when you know better you do better because just 10 years ago, when I brought home puppies, I would call the neighbors and say, Hey, I got puppies. I'm fostering puppies don't come meet them or Yeah, and I you know, 20 years ago did the rub your nose in it? When I got a puppy? I asked folks, what do I What do I do? He's peeing and pooping. And they were like, rub his nose in it. I'm mortified and definitely would send you know, prayers for Him to forgive me for that. But that's all I knew.
Deb 34:33
Well, the rolled up newspapers people still do that. It's though thinking that it's great because they're not hitting their dog. That's what I grew up with seeing all around me. It's nauseating. I can't even fathom it today. But those were good good hearted people who were trying not to hit their dog like it wasn't coming from an evil place. It was coming from a tragically uninformed and that's where behavior science is so exciting now, and I think it's it's there's good momentum in that And so, you know, professionals and rescuers and volunteer for us to stay as up to speed as we can, and then share it through things like this podcast. You know, I think that's the conversation that needs to keep happening. It's just what everyone is learning.
Emily 35:13
Oh, God, I love that I was tragically uninformed. And I feel like I was super privileged enough to be able to learn more. I don't know everything, that's for sure. But I've learned a lot through the rescue in the past decade or so.
Deb 35:28
And I think the cool thing is, as humans, we have to go our entire life saying, I don't know everything, we always have to have a part of us that is curious, because that's what's gonna keep driving the research, driving the questions driving all of us as individuals to do a better job with the the dogs that we have in our in our care, whether they're in our homes or in our rescues, or shelters, we have to always say, I don't know everything. And I will never know everything. So let me stay curious. And let me let this dog teach me.
Libby 35:58
I want to circle back to something you mentioned briefly. But I would really love your perspective on this. You said something about in dog training, there's nothing like dog training to bring up people's egos. Why do you think that is?
Deb 36:14
You know, that's a fascinating question. I've asked myself, over the time, over the years, when I've done things like agility, or canine freestyle with my dogs, or, and I get in these environments where all of a sudden, it's like, oh, my gosh, this is so cutthroat, I thought we were just having fun with our dogs in here. You know, I think it's, I think there's a lot of things that it could be, and I'm not a psychologist, so I'm speculating. But I'm going to compare it to something I did for a lot of years was teach dance, to humans. And there was theater parents, you know, which we were the stage door, they were always there, they were standing. And they were like, you know, in rehearsal, kind of poking and yelling at their kids, it got so extreme that I actually had to close the curtains on the windows, and I allowed parents to watch once every season, like once every three months, because the kids would get so stressed out, parents wanting the kids to behave, it's like an ego fulfillment thing or something. And I've wondered, Is there a little bit of that with the dog world? Like, I'm the reflection of me is how my dog behaves. You know, and I work with clients. And I've heard a lot of people say, Well, I'm so embarrassed, because I have the super sweet little dog who gets reactive in parks. And so everybody else's dogs can go to the soccer games, and my dog can't, and I'm so embarrassed. I've heard that over and over again. And so I think we somehow tie our sense of self, our sense of accomplishment, you know, to our dog's behavior. And, and I've even felt that sometimes, you know, where it's like, oh, I'm walking, my dog just went totally crazy over something, a trigger that I totally missed somehow. And now I'm getting control back and the person over there with the prong collar is looking at me, like, I don't know what I'm doing. But it's like, I actually do have control, my dog is still smiling. It just took a second because I missed the trigger. I felt like a failure my egos in it. You know, and I think what we have to do as humans is our own personal work of saying, Okay, we've all got egos that do great things for us, and that we've all got egos that have our trigger points and are fragile in certain ways. It's part of being human. And so how do we consciously be aware of that, and say, I'm not gonna put that on my poor dog who I just adopted, and is suddenly not going to be happy at a dog park. You know, and, and now I feel like I'm a loser, because my dog won't go to a dog park, you know, so we have to, we have to, we have to own our stuff. And be curious about our own development. You know, I think that's part of the like being on earth is that we're all growing all the time. And we've all got these valuable parts of ourselves. But I've seen in places also where people aren't, you know, their height, I've seen high competitors in agility rings, who are so separated from their ego, and they're so in it for their dog. And what happens is this beautiful, their dog is smiling and happy, and everyone's enjoying it. And if they win, great, and if they don't, they hug and kiss and have treats anyways. And it's so cool. Like, what we can have if we get out of our own way, is that kind of thing. And knowing that someday, we're going to have one dog and the next day, just like us, our dog might be in a different mood, and we might not have the dog that was behaving the same way the day before. And it's all cool.
Libby 39:20
I love that. I love the story of agility and doing it for the dog. And yeah, I think it's really cool when people can put that aside and recognize, okay, maybe there's something, something I'm doing isn't working for my dog, and maybe I wanted it to work out but it's not and that's okay. And it's just a really beautiful thing.
Deb 39:45
And remembering that our dogs are individuals, and that there's not going to be the same. Just because they were one way one day at the same Trailhead doesn't mean the very next day, that same Trailhead might bring out a whole different part of the dog, you know, and the squirrel runs by and It's a different trigger. And now we have a different brain going on in our dog. It's just like us. I mean, I'm that way, you know, the same day can set off different things.
Libby 40:09
Totally. Maybe your dog didn't even want to be at the trailhead that day. But, you know, you're so intent on getting out the door, I fall into that trap sometimes like, okay, it's Friday, we got to do our usual Friday walk, we gotta go, we gotta go. And then every once in a while, I realize, oh, oh, Daisy is not into this. And I almost just, like, dragged her into the truck. And oh, that's it. We can be couch potatoes today. Like, that's okay. But you're so right. It has to start with that understanding how to communicate, and, and being open to the idea that what I am expecting to hear might not be what I actually hear.
Deb 40:49
I know I want to go to dinner, but my partner wants Mexican food and I want Italian food, does it mean that we're no longer a fit? No, it just means that we're gonna have to decide, you know, maybe we're not having Mexican food or Italian food tonight. Maybe we're doing something else. You know, maybe it's okay.
Libby 41:06
Maybe it's okay. Whatever happens, maybe it's okay.
Emily 41:09
What a great conversation with you, Deb. I think we need to drag you in more once you finish your dissertation.
Deb 41:17
Well, it was fun to do this. I'm really looking forward to seeing how this podcast continues to to grow and I'm really excited to see the traction it's getting and it's super important.
Libby 41:34
Thanks for tuning in. If you liked this episode, don't forget to rate and review. It helps other folks like you find the show. To find out more about our programming and adoptable rescue dogs, you can visit summit dog rescue.org thanks to Mike pesci for the original music and to Alex Lee Ammons and for the love media for graphics production and editing. See you soon on pod to the rescue.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai