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How to Integrate Dogs Into Families with Babies and Children with Jennifer ShryockJennifer Shryock wants dogs to happily coexist in families with children and babies. She is so passionate about this that she founded Family Paws, an organization that offers resources to dog-loving families. In this informative episode, she talks to Emily and Libby about:
managing expectations about integration and transition differences between prepping for a dog or puppy practical tips and tricks too practice with foster dogs why dogs kissing babies actually might be your dog’s call for helpJennifer has an immense amount of compassion not just for dogs but for the families willing to bring them into the folds of their lives. This is a truly uplifting conversation and not to be missed if you have a family, have a dog and are family planning, or want to bring a foster into your family. If you have children or want to learn more about how to educate potential adopters with children, learn more about Family Paws here. |
Episode Transcript
Emily 0:09
Welcome to pod to the rescue.
Libby 0:11
Rescuing the dog is just the first step. We're here to help with everything that comes next. Hello, everyone, and welcome back to pod to the rescue. I'm Libby.
Emily 0:23
And I'm Emily.
Libby 0:24
And today, we are bringing you an interview with Jennifer Shryock of family pause. And I just have to say, I'm so glad we did this interview.
Emily 0:38
Yeah, I really enjoyed speaking to her. And it made me feel like there's a great program out there for anyone getting a dog who has children in the home.
Libby 0:48
Yeah, we here at Summit dog rescue often see the negative fallout of dogs and little kids. And so it's hard to stay positive about how we can successfully place rescue dogs or any dogs really in a family with young kids. And talking to Jennifer made me feel like it's not only possible, but it could be a beautiful thing, if all parties involved, put in the time to do a little education.
Emily 1:18
We all want our kids to grow up with dogs. My son grew up with dogs. And yeah, we always had dogs in and out of the house. And I think if done right with, you know, mindfulness and education, it can be a beautiful thing. And even if you have road bumps this program can help you get through those bumps.
Libby 1:36
Jennifer Shryock is a certified dog behavior consultant and the proud owner of family paws LLC in Cary, North Carolina. Jennifer has served as a board member of the International childbirth education association, and is also a mother and former special education teacher. Yeah, her website Family paws.org is just an incredible resource. And definitely check it out. If you have kids, if you are a rescue that wants to know how to educate families with kids. It's just a really fabulous, fabulous website. Enjoy this episode, share it with those who would find it helpful. And let us know what you think on social.
Hello, Jennifer Schrock, welcome to pod to the rescue.
Jennifer 2:36
Thank you so much for inviting me.
Libby 2:38
Yeah, we're so glad that you're here. So can you just start by telling us about family paws and why the dog family interaction going well is so near and dear to your heart.
Jennifer 2:50
Well, family paws started because of my dogs and my little my kiddos. We adopted our first German Shepherd when my boys were three in two. And that got me involved in rescue. And not only did I you know, quickly see how wonderful it is to have kids and dogs together. But I also saw the frustrations, the fears and the anxieties that many families brought to the rescue when they would call because, you know, we adopted a dog and I ended up volunteering and doing all sorts of things for rescue. One of the things was answering their voicemails and hearing those calls. And so that sparked more of an interest. And to be honest, I grew up with dogs. I know the importance of the companionship, the love, the confidant, you know, canines as confidence I always talk about they're just, you know, there's nothing like it. So I wanted to help increase the success success for families and dogs alike. Yeah, so this was a good way to do it.
Libby 4:00
It's amazing. And you have a website and a hotline and all sorts of resources for families, right?
Jennifer 4:08
Absolutely. It's important to me, especially with dog and baby toddler dynamics, that families feel that they have support and help when they need it. Right. A lot of times, those are immediate emergency kinds of situations. For example, the call from the hospital, you know, where they're, you know, just had a baby have a dog at home and now all of a sudden, they have real concerns. Or, you know, the other kind of call we often get is maybe they're just experienced a bite or a growl and they're really fearful and I really believe that people need support and help immediately and then guidance as far as resources, but I like to support people right away. So that, you know, they feel like they have a direction and so that we implement safety measures immediately.
Libby 4:59
That such an amazing resource. It's so amazing.
Emily 5:02
I wish that had been around two decades ago because I had a really serious bite on my toddler from my dog. And I had gotten the wrong advice previously about her growling at my toddler. And, you know, having an amazing resource could have changed.
Jennifer 5:22
Absolutely. And you know, it really is so important, I think, when families are going through a situation like this, to help one, validate their concerns, hear what's going on, and be there without judgment kind of be there in the moment, and really tried to listen as carefully as we can to figure out what's going to be the best option for them moving forward, what's going to be the best resource to help them take the next step. But right away, we want to immediately look at management, what we can do right that day, to help get them through the day.
Emily 6:00
One thing that really sparked my interest in speaking with you was that you have this history in rescue. And as you know, our podcast or audience, our, you know, rescue workers and also fosters and adopters. So could you walk us through some of the work that you do with rescues and how to set up a family so that if they do have children, that hopefully they're successful?
Jennifer 6:23
Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I had just mentioned to you guys, we had a temporary foster over the weekend, I was evaluating a dog, my old my son is old enough for a dog, which is unbelievable in itself thinking back. Because growing up, he never knew a time really without a bunch of dogs in the house. So for me, so I'm thinking back to all the rescues all the Fosters, we've had, we foster so many dogs, and it's such a wonderful experience. And now I'm completely forgetting the direction you were going just like my my mind went in a lot of different areas. When you asked me that.
Emily 7:06
Well, that's okay. Yeah. So yeah. So like, if someone was bringing home a dog, you know, how would they prepare in advance? How would you coach somebody who was like, you know, what, my son is now six years old. And we're thinking about getting a family dog and we want to adopt not, you know, shop. So how would you coach someone like that? If they came to you and asked, like, how do we bring the dog home? And how do we prepare in advance?
Jennifer 7:34
Absolutely. The first thing I think many families need to be reminded is that transitions are really, really hard for everybody. So setting expectations ahead of time with your child, but also, and maybe even depending on the age of the child, what I did with my daughter was actually, we had some of our stuffed dogs, you know, the nice good sized dogs and we put them in the crate. And we practice timing of different things. And we said, here's the routine, here's what's going to happen, we're going to have to do this and do that and wrote out a schedule on a whiteboard and things like that. But I think setting expectations for the child if they're old enough, to participate, and you know, to be included in that, but also helping the family to realize that even though you're super excited about bringing this dog home, that transition is super stressful. And everything although you're showering them with love and good intention and all this stuff, for some dogs, that is a completely new and foreign experience carpet is often a foreign experience. So taking it slow, taking it slow. Remember that this dog is not known to your child or to you know, your child's not known to this dog. So making sure that things like a plan for the even the ride home I see a lot of people just throw the kids in the dog in the backseat and away they go you know, things like that. So having expectations about a gradual transition, and a gradual integration. So there's definitely always crates, gates, room dividers, you know, those kinds of things. You know, and taking things slow and and setting everybody up for success in that way.
Libby 9:46
We talk so much about going slow on this podcast. It's I mean, it comes up at critic all the time but going slow. Integrating dogs with kids seems like an it's even more important. for everybody's safety,
Jennifer 10:01
it really is. And, and to clarify, I mean, I think it can be really scary for people you know, as they are not scary but intimidating when we say, you know, take your time, it's gradual or slow. What we mean by that is really observing your dog and comfort level. So when I say go slow, I mean, take it at each animal and each child's pace. Because, you know, if you bring a new puppy home, their amount of energy, and how they might behave, jump be mouthy all those typical puppy things really could be super overwhelming, even for a child who's like, hey, I really want a dog, well, I may really want a dog but not who's scratching me not who's mouthing me, not his, you know, so helping everybody to have comfortable boundaries and know that it's okay. And setting those expectations ahead of time is really, really important. And taking your time, it goes a lot faster than we think. But I definitely encourage people to have kind of a, I always say, three to six month window of adjustment for everybody, when it comes to all aspects of adjusting.
Libby 11:16
I love that. And you mentioned puppy versus an adult dog. How would you prep differently? In those situations, adult dog versus a puppy, you know, a new dog coming into a home with kids?
Jennifer 11:31
You know, that's a really, really interesting question, I was thinking about it ahead of time, I'm gonna say add on to a whole lot different. Because there's going to be separation, I am a big believer in, you know, having when we fostered our dogs, and we have fostered, you know, we did have litters of puppies, and all sorts of different age groups and everything. So we've fostered over seven, eight dogs over the many years. And my kids were fairly young. And so juggling and managing is something that I'm quite familiar with. So taking it slow. And, you know, regardless of if they're a puppy, or they're an adult dog, we're going to still implement management, we're not going to throw them into the whole group. So that being one of the main things, the other thing is, you have to take a puppy out consistently and on a schedule. So do you have to do that with a new dog that may not have any, you know, even if they do have, you know, have haven't checked off at the rescue or the shelter that they their house, you know, they have good manners, they're still going to need to learn how to do it in this house, they're still going to need to have that scheduled for success. So honestly, a lot is quite the same, which I think people think oh, and older dog, we're just going to throw him in, it's going to be fine. You know, the rescue or the shelter said they're good with this, this this, therefore, it should be fine. I'm still going to encourage people to slow down, step back and allow small intervals and observe and allow the dog time to adjust and then includes management setting up activities different. So I, I'm not thinking it's all that different. You still have to 100% supervised, right? You're going to take the creating slow. You're gonna go into socialization stuff. So I'm gonna say it's fairly similar. In my book.
Emily 13:36
Do you think having, you know, if you were a shelter or rescue? Do you think it's important to you know, try to play stocks that have previous experience with kids in homes with kids? And maybe not take that leap? If you don't have any knowledge? I guess that's where we kind of struggled sometimes in skew is like, you know, learning on someone's kid is something that always makes me nervous. So we tend to like unless it has some kid experience, be really cautious, extremely cautious about placing, like an unknown history dog in a home with kids.
Jennifer 14:16
Hmm, well, yeah, this is a loaded question, right? There's flip sides always there's a good and a bad. So just because they've been exposed to children before doesn't mean it was a positive experience. It could have been very much the underlying reason why they are there. But maybe the family didn't really even whether they came clean or whether or whether they even knew it was not going so well. So So exposure doesn't necessarily mean a good son always a good thing, right? It could be that those kids were running around and everything was out of control and the dog had previous experience that was quite stressful. So what I really liked is to observe dogs, you know, in a variety of situations, and again, I can't emphasize it enough, where, you know, you've got to take it slow. And this is where I think rushing that relationship when they come home. You know, even if a rescue has seen a dog or knows a dog has previous experience, that's fantastic. However, that doesn't really mean it's, it's not a just free for all because of that, right? I think sometimes that can give people false sense of security. And then they think, Oh, well, he's great with dogs, so my kids can do anything to him. And that's often what we hear, right? We do hear that. So when people say, my dog is so good, then they start to say, he let some do bing, bing, bing, you know, A, B, and C. And as soon as they start to go down that path, I say, Well, you know, are those things really good? So let's talk about that, you know, it, you know, are those are those behaviors that, you know, your dog should tolerate, like if my, my kids, and, you know, if every time my kids saw my, my, my sister, my sister, let my kids Yank her hair and, you know, get up in her face and do all these things. I wouldn't say she's the best aunt ever, because she allows them just to invade her space and be inappropriate. I think we have to change what those what we want this to look like, right? I mean, obviously, the label good dog is, is an issue overall. But I do think that people, when they see oh, good with kids, I think people let their guard down. And they kind of make a sweeping generalization. That concerns me, I think we still no matter what need to approach it the same way. Your dog is just like when a dog isn't resource guarding fantastic, great, let's reinforce the heck out of that assuming that there could be right or that the dog may choose to resource guard, let's let's work and reward the behavior that we're liking. But let's not push it
Libby 17:16
want something else is that all kids are different to just because a dog was fine and one family doesn't mean that the other family with different types of kids, different personalities, different energy levels is going to be fine in that whole?
Jennifer 17:31
Absolutely, absolutely. And that's, that's so confusing for people to you know, we run into this when someone has a second or third child. And you know, the dog has a sensitivity to one or the other and or grandparent has, you know, has had so many grandchildren around this dog, but there's that one grandchild. And that's one of the reasons I say babies grow dogs age, we have to adjust at every stage, it's hugely important. And so we have to look at the context, we have to look at the situation, look at all there's a lot of variables, right, that we're looking at. And so I tend to when I see good with kids, I say, Well, you know, in this moment, right now, here's what we're seeing. But we always need to work on what is what is the best. The most respectful, least stressful, interaction and scenarios that we can have.
Emily 18:35
I love I love that just thinking about it, you know, from that perspective, that just like us behavior changes, given our environment or our mood, or how we feel that day. So to make a sweeping generalization is, is probably not a great way to set people up for success to really like study the dog in front of you, and learn body language and kind of assess like you're saying very slowly, every step.
Jennifer 19:04
Right. And I mean, this is true, you know, I, again, you know, looking at the dog, I had hear it, she ignored some of my cats, but not all my cats again. So I can't say great with every single cat in the world. But I can say in this situation in this circumstance, you know, here's what I observed. But I always want to reinforce the good stuff.
Emily 19:30
That's so interesting, because we say that about dogs, like we would never say like, oh, this dog is great with all I'm not great with every Yeah, exactly. But kids we I think myself being guilty, like I think like you're good with kids or you're bad with kids, like you know, but you're right. There's like a whole it's all situational and history learning history. And so it's imperative that the people really watch closely and go slow.
Jennifer 19:55
Absolutely, absolutely. And allow, allow that observation. Shouldn't so you can start to really get to know the dog and their comfort level and also to the child and how they're responding with the dog. I mean, you know, so there's a lot of factors there taking it slow.
Libby 20:12
Are there any specific skills that foster families can teach dogs so that if they are placed into a home with kids, it can be more successful?
Jennifer 20:24
Oh, absolutely. I really like I love touch. A skill that not only is it a great way to move a dog out of a situation, but could also help and be an interactive thing that a child can easily do without putting their hands on the dog. I, one of the skills that we did with our, our large large dog was teach him a nice side laying down posture, so that he wasn't so overwhelming with his giant size, but I love a default set, you know, for on the floor mat is great having a place you know, so that, I mean, those are great ideals. But I, you know, all those things. So cute little tricks are always good to also add because kids can engage and do that kind of thing. That's one of the reasons I really like touch. You know, it, there's so many ways to incorporate that and use it. And it's not physically touching the dog.
Libby 21:33
Right. So rather than laying all over the dog, hugging the dog, and knowing the dog, you can play a game of touch, you can do you know, show us your tricks, that kind of thing.
Jennifer 21:45
Show us your tricks side and see, and behaviors that the dog knows has confidence in feels good. Okay, touch means this, I got that, you know, that's a great way to build, you know, have that comfort around a child in an unfamiliar setting. And as they adjust, having that as a transitional skill, I always think Matt is phenomenal as a transitional skill as well. You know, being able to, you know, have that met, go to the new home or have that behavior. So well, you know, have the fluency be so good that the dog is like, oh, yeah, okay, I know what to do when I see that thing. You know, same with when you you know, take the dog to the vet, the dogs like, oh, okay, I know what to do. I don't like this room. But man, that mat. Magic happens there. Okay, cool. It appears everywhere. So that's kind of cool, too. Yeah, pretty important. Those things, and creating, I mean, craving and being able to be behind a gate, those are essential. I mean, absolutely. In any home. I mean, I think across the board, I really think all dogs need to be exposed to gradual separation with positive experiences, and allow that opportunity to succeed, you know, and build slowly, I think often, management is thrown into place as a desperation, and everybody's kind of stressed. And it often leads to a lot of frustration and a lot of anxiety and destruction of houses and that kind of thing. So we really want to practice that. And that's a huge help if Foster's exposed dogs to play yards, gates, those kinds of things as well.
Libby 23:30
Do you have any suggestions for families who want to adopt on how to choose the right dog to adopt to bring into a family?
Jennifer 23:41
Absolutely, I think you really want a dog that personality, energy wise is going to mesh with the family really well. But we're looking for a dog who is choosing the family one of the ways that our girls Sadie came to us as you know, she absolutely chose us at a you know, it was like, Ooh, happy, happy, happy, happy, wanted to be with us. You know, when you go to meet a dog or you're visiting, do they choose to engage with you? Or are they saying yeah, you know, no, thanks. You know, I can take it or leave it. You know, having that with children is essential. You know, are they interested or not? You really have to have a people a dog that really enjoys being around people if you're going to have them in with children. Definitely want to see how the dog you know, how they respond to novel stimuli, you know, changes in appearance, a lot of different things. I mean, you know, when I went to go assess these dogs, I had my bag of tricks with you know, everything from masks to hats to you know, loud noises, different toys, those kinds of things. You know what happens when ball Calls are out what happens when there's a remote control car? So having a sense and feel for energy level that they're going to do? Is this family constantly going to ballgames? Are they constantly then, you know, a ball crazy dog may not be a great fit depending on what that looks like. What? Yeah. So I mean, just knowing what they're looking for, I think some people have a type of look, they're often looking for and think less about. Either the, you know, sometimes people go into it with I have the, alright, I speak for myself. That's how I went into it. When I first went to rescue and said, hey, I'm interested. I want I knew I wanted a German Shepherd. All right, that said, Did I really know what I was getting into? No, I grew up with Cavaliers and Golden's I had an obsession with German Shepherds. But they were so beautiful. And so I went to rescue and said, I'd love you know, we would like to adopt a puppy my, and they pretty much said, No, you know, because my boys were three and two, which was the greatest. It was, it was awesome that they said no. And I had a lot of learning to do. And we adopted a four year old dog based on personality based on, he was easygoing, he had a nice calm energy. He was responsive to all of us. You know, he was super friendly. You know, all those things, you know, but they really have to choose their people choose like to be with, you know, not doing the outskirts or we're really anxious. You know, when you have kids, it's not necessarily the time to pick a project, a dog that's going to I, I say, Project dog, because I'm really good at finding those. And it's, you know, and it's, and we are drawn to them. But it's super important that we have as an outgoing kind of roll with it kind of dog.
Libby 27:09
Yeah, it seems like all of our dogs and rescue lately have been project dogs, it's really tough.
Jennifer 27:17
Well, and there's, you know, those are great dogs, too. But when there's toddlers, or really young children that is super, super hard.
Libby 27:25
I love your point about how does the dog react to novel stimuli? Because that's something I would never have even thought about what happens when your kid comes out of the playroom wearing a tutu and a cowboy hat and waving a baton? How
Jennifer 27:42
if, right, we're Yeah, laser or, like, you know, Halloween is coming. So this is one of the times of the year that is super hard for dogs. And, you know, kids wear costumes to be scary and spooky. And to play the part and dress up and act up, which leads to animation, it leads to all different things, you know, changes in behavior. You know, in the predictable looking toddler or child can be really, you know, my daughter came running in with a bike helmet on sunglasses, and she came in the side door versus the regular front door, and then totally stuck, you know, startled the dog. But you have to think about those things. How, what's the recovery look like? Okay, so if your dog spooks a little easily goes, Hey, what's that? Do they go? Hey, what's that for the rest of the day? And they never go near that. And they, they, you know, avoid the area where that appeared? Or, you know, what does that look like? What's the recovery time look like?
Emily 28:44
I think that's a key thing that people don't know what to look for. I have to say that I'm kind of having an aha moment over here on responding to novel stimuli, as you know, and how do they how do they respond? I think that's a great. A great way to assess a dog for a child family home.
Jennifer 29:03
Yeah, no, it's it really is super important. And having that management a dog, I'm telling you what dogs that had been exposed. First of all, I really believe strongly that exposing to management, exposing to Play Arts, exposing to gates prior to going to their new home. One, if the foster home can say, hey, you know what we've been practicing this year, it's a great model to help in that transitional period as they move in. So not only will the family say, oh, that's kind of the norm to do this. Cool. You know, and so you're actually helping to show them that, you know, this is a good idea. And this is normal. It's not a bad thing. I think a lot of people think, Oh, I don't want to separate my dog. We want to include our dog. Yes, you do. But your dog also, your dog also needs breaks. especially in homes with children. And so that's a huge gift Foster's can give is practicing those things and then showing the family look, he's really good at this, we've set this up, and this is how to do it. And that that can make it really good. The other thing we're finding a lot of times now is that dogs are not getting rest, and they're not getting really good sleep. So, you know, that is hugely important. When you mentioned the puppy, that's one of the big things, puppies need their rest. So, you know, having a place, you know, with my, when my, when I had puppies, I had the kids use a, you know, one of those presentation boards, like a three A Hard TriFold board that you can stand up, you know, for a presentation, you put it on a table or whatever, I got tall ones, and we use those, I let the kids decorate it and we put, you know, pictures of the dogs sleeping or put a stop sign. And then I would have a timer that the kids we could set the timer and the puppy was going to nap when the timer went off, then we together would take down that visual divider. But during that time the puppy was resting. So it blocked the visual of the rest of the room going on. And it was safe because the Puppy couldn't pull it in the crate like a blanket to create a calm space. It can decrease stimuli for the puppy. And it also allowed the child the boundary of during this time when you see this. That's his time downtime, we're going to leave them alone. So that can be super helpful to us. Our dogs need rest. They need uninterrupted quiet at times.
Libby 31:56
Absolutely. They need more sleep than we think they do. Even adult dogs. Absolutely. And if you've ever experienced an overtired toddler, then that gives you a little insight into why overtired dog can be like to
Jennifer 32:12
well, and many of them are many of the dogs that we're seeing who are you know, have folks working at home? Have kids that were homeschooled in the last year are going, what are you doing? What do you do? What do you do all the time? And so it's become? You know, that's a lot of what we're seeing I? I'm sure you guys are too.
Libby 32:33
So how can families adjust their expectations of what life would the dog is really like, you know, you you talked about setting up a visual signal of okay, the pup, we're not going to play with the puppy all day the puppy is going to sleep for X number of hours this many times a day? And how can shelter and rescue volunteers? Coach adopters?
Jennifer 32:56
That is a great question. And I will tell you that in a perfect world. You know, when I started family paws, it was really to benefit rescues and to provide educational resources, you know, and it especially to share with families, newly families that have just adopted a dog so that we could help that transition. And offer those kinds of services. It's really, really, really important. So I would just encourage them to continue learning. I you know, I, I hear what you're saying it's very hard, you're limited in the amount of time that you have with them. I would encourage the the application process to be very thorough, you know, describe what a typical day looks like, what what, what would the ideal dog look like? Describe for me this, you know, and seeing where they're coming from, I find it's really telling when people people do people are looking for what they know. So, you know, coming from the background that I was coming from as well. Our experience when we're new parents or parents, and we're looking to get a dog, we're usually basing our desires on previous experience or desires of our childhood dog. So asking a bit about their childhood dog experience. What you know that if you're given that opportunity, that's a that's a really great, that's a really interesting question. You know, did you ever I, you know, that I like to talk with people and find out what, what that looked like for them. You know, and when I hear oh, we always slept with the dog or we did this or did that we can talk about it. But again, you know, I do realize it's limited in time, but it's one of the it's a really good question because that's So often what they're looking for, you know, or they have the expectations of this dog resembling something like their family blog. And times have changed a bit right? Times has changed and how we train thank goodness, how we look at dogs, how we know so much more, or at least take, you know, look at body language, you know. And so, yeah, so it is interesting to see that stuff.
Libby 35:29
Yeah, I growing up, I didn't have dogs, but I lived in a neighborhood where the dogs, most of the dogs roamed. And so, you know, my friends had dogs that were the neighborhood dogs who would come over. And that's a very different environment from today's family dog. So it's important to think about those differences when we're talking about how we want our lives to look like with a dog. Also, I mean, I'm, how old am I? I'm 35. Back. I mean, when I was growing up, we didn't take dogs everywhere. We didn't take dogs to every soccer game, and to every coffee run, you know?
Jennifer 36:12
Right. Right. It is different. And so that's really where expectations come from. And if you ask that question, and, you know, again, I don't think you know, it's, it's hard to know where that would fit in. But that's part of the conversation I love to have with people, because it gives me a lot of insight, especially when you have two parents, two adults that have different families of origin and their dogs, you know, one might have had dogs that were outside all the time, and one might have dogs that were sitting at the dining room table, I mean, you can have a wide range of variety. And so it's good to know that so that you can help kind of get a feel for what those expectations are. The other thing is, you know, asking what does a relationship with their child? You know, what does the ideal relationship with a dog and child look like? What did they what are they expecting there? You know, those are really important and telling questions.
Libby 37:12
I think that's so important to just make sure that we're on the same page. So often we're not and we make assumptions. And that's not good for anyone.
Jennifer 37:21
Absolutely,
Emily 37:22
yeah. And hopefully, if parents could get just even a 10 or 15 minute, you know, kind of educational discussion about how things might have changed for dogs in the last 20 or 25 years. I know. You know, now new families, I'm sure things are different for their dogs rather than how it was when they were growing up. Like you were saying lucky, like dogs roam free, and choke chains were very common back then. So if you if you hadn't been updated, and this was the first talk you were getting in 25 years, it might be good for families to learn, like, oh, so things have changed a little bit. And in order to have a really, you know, successful family dog, it might be best to learn.
Jennifer 38:08
Yeah, I mean, it makes sense, right? You're gonna do what you know. Right? Exactly. And so you defer and default back to what you grew up with, and what you knew, because that is what you know, and so, you know, if you know that upfront, then we can say, ah, you know, and introduce some new concepts and new ideas. And that opens the door.
Libby 38:32
I just, and that's why I think that your project, your website, your hotline is so fabulous. Like, what an amazing resource for this education. Yeah, we're lucky to have you.
Jennifer 38:44
Thank you. This is definitely an area I feel very strongly about. And I appreciate rescue for sure.
Emily 38:51
It sounds like if people, you know, prepared for a new rescue, what do you think like two, three weeks of prepping and educating the family and getting on the same page? What would you recommend before you bring the dog home?
Jennifer 39:04
I think that, um, you know, assume, yeah, I think just being able to have that time so that they can get whatever items they're going to need having a checklist for, you know, suggested items suggested practice. You know, it would be great if there were in a perfect world I'd love if there was a little class that you know, was available, so the kids could be included in that too. You know, so but being able to having having that information ahead of time so that they have all the equipment and tools all the enrichment lined up set up. It just would be really really, really helpful. I think a lot of people wait until Okay, the dogs here and yeah, you have to wait a little bit to find out size font, you know, fit harnesses and do all that. stuff or whatever it is you're going to be using and find out what they're putting, you know, toys, likes, dislikes, all that stuff too. But having things ahead of time that are going to be, especially the enrichment ideas, you know, things like that, that is going to immediately be implemented, would be really helpful. Yeah.
Libby 40:20
So where are you going to put the crate? Where are you going to put the baby gate? When is Kong time? That kind of thing?
Jennifer 40:26
Yeah, thinking it through, when are the busiest times of the day? When's transition, you know, paying attention to the rhythm of the house before the dogs going to arrive and saying who's where when, you know? So that's, that's a constant juggling act, you know, you know, the kids are going to be, we're getting ready in the morning, that's a hectic time, you know, who's going to take the dog out who's going to be you know, depending on age, I'm thinking you know, it different ages require different things, you know. So, there's all sorts of things, but those details, a little bit of planning can mean a lot more success.
Emily 41:10
I love that. I, I noticed on your website, you have a cool coloring sheet that people can print off and do with their children where it's the body language dogs, I thought that could be a really great way to prep. You know, maybe watch a couple of body language videos, and then do the coloring sheets. Identifying you know, lick lick and Yahoo and Bing I think it's called being a doggy detective, right?
Jennifer 41:36
Yes. Yeah. Doggy detective ears eyes tail muzzle. Yeah, the clues of the puzzle and love it. You know, there's, I think, I think there's always good times to be doggy detective, but absolutely, um, more than a family can do ahead of time. You know, looking at body language, and even even practicing with videos, you know, looking at the videos, identifying things for older children. I'm amazed you know, I think people underestimate how much kids do pick up a really with body language. Once you see it you don't unseen I do find that if you play kind of that. What do you see game with kids? That often they do catch things a lot faster than the adults and and they're really good at identifying it. So that can be a fun game. And there's certainly plenty of videos to look at body language. On. Yeah, online.
Libby 42:37
That's so smart.
Jennifer 42:38
And I love you mentioned the coloring sheets. Because yeah, that would be fabulous. To do ahead of time.
Emily 42:44
Yeah.
Libby 42:45
So speaking about education, you have a fabulous video series on your website about kiss to dismiss. And I would love to talk about this because we see it so often on social media, a cute little video of it. I'm cute in quotation marks, listeners, have a dog licking the baby in the face usually accompanied with some kind of caption, they love each other. It's going so well. She's giving kisses to the baby. Can you explain briefly for our listeners? What is kiss to dismiss? And why our dogs are maybe not actually kissing babies?
Jennifer 43:25
That's a great question. And I love this subject. So I'm really I started. It's funny, because due to the phone calls I would receive over and over and over again, you know, as a behavior person, I love patterns. And I notice, huh, that's interesting. So many of these, these types of calls they're mentioning, you know, the parents seemed very confused, because they always thought the dog loved the baby because of the licking. And so, you know, over time, I started looking at more and more videos and seeing that pattern. And, you know, just for something to help my clients look at it from a different point of view. I started referencing as kiss to dismiss and as something that really your dog may be doing to increase distance. And I thought about it from the way of how many times does a dog look us in the face, we move away? It you know, it's to some degree that simple, you know, it does increase distance. And so instead of looking at it as Oh, it's love and affection. We need to stop and look at everything. Usually with Kiss to dismiss. The consistent things that I do see are going to be things like the dog is checking in looking to the trusted adult for praise or guidance looking away. Like, they're almost saying, Help me, help me, you know, so sometimes the child is not old enough. So classic situation, the baby's crawling the dogs hanging out laying down comfortable, you know, doesn't want to get up from its comfy spot, the baby keeps going, the dog might do a head turn, tongue flick. And you know, the baby continues to get close. And at this point, the dog might look to the trusted adult, again, you're gonna see a change in eyes, you might see some well I turn aways, changes in breathing. And if the child continues to approach, that's when we're going to see the kids to dismiss. So it goes from, you know, maybe there might have been a flick, but now we're more seeing pushing away, where the dog is, like, move it. So it's more intense. Everything in the facial muscles is tense. And it's a combination of signals. So I've definitely seen that and it, you know, time and time again, I will say most, in almost, I would say, many, if not, most of the cases I do, where there's been a growl, and especially a bite kiss to dismiss is involved. It's fascinating. It is fascinating. And it's really, really, really interesting, because it's very misunderstood. And what I'm referencing, at times can almost be it can present almost as an inhibited bite, it gets pretty intense. So, but it's, it's definitely concerning, you know, one of those interesting signals, and unfortunately,
Emily 46:48
I'm probably all over, you know, Instagram and Tiktok videos of it. Obviously, think it's adorable and don't know. So it's those cases of like, a little education could save a lot of suffering.
Jennifer 47:05
And yeah, and one of the really big things that I noticed about kids to dismiss is the tension. And often the tension in the in the face. So a leg so sometimes, you know, a dog might lick, you know, and it's an it's fine. However, that can change. So, you know, one moment to the next can look very different. And so we have to be mindful of that your dog might enjoy something. But that doesn't mean we want to repeat it time and time again, and we don't really want young babies are crawling babies crawling towards the dog, you know, we always want to give dogs a choice as much as possible. And definitely an unfamiliar baby crawling on the floor, eye level with a dog is going to make them uncomfortable, especially if they're hanging out in a cozy spot. So we you know, we want to look at those things I find kiss to dismiss is very misunderstood, as well as a dog when they lay on their back. That's another one I hear about often from parents is, oh, I don't understand he was on his back. And then you know, he growled or bit them. And it really is super important to know, like, first of all, your dog might have wanted petting at first, but maybe wasn't prepared for the child to hover over them and to be in their space. And maybe the petting went on too long. And and sometimes that rolling on their back is a total tap app. So you know, we really do want to look at those things. But these are often misunderstood. So yeah, more information needed.
Libby 48:48
Yeah, I, I'm thinking back to our episode with Michael Shikashio. And our episode on body language, how usually a bite or aggressive behavior is preceded by a dozen other signals that we just blew right by we didn't see. And it's so important that parents start to recognize and kids if they're old enough start to recognize these signals.
Jennifer 49:12
Oh, yeah, definitely. It's amazing. It's amazing once you start looking at them, and really fine tuning your observation skills really important.
Emily 49:22
Could you discuss just a little bit about those phone calls that you have received over the years you've been doing this we get similar emails from people where it has not gone well.
Jennifer 49:34
You know what it looks like? All too often is a family that has tremendous regret and says I wish I'd known and that that is really what makes me incredibly sad is when you know everybody is everybody is doing the best that they know to do. But the reality is our dogs are complex. X our dogs have a communication system of their own. And we owe it to them, to continue learning about them to learn about their likes, their dislikes, their comfort, you know, and how they communicate. You know, so we, we just, we expect so much of our dogs, you know, you know, even even the example of just, you know, leaving a shelter or coming home, that ride in the car, come home, and then we want you to go out and meet the whole neighborhood to, you know, we really do throw them in a lot of crazy situations. And they don't have a way to indicate other than their body language, that they're uncomfortable. And so we owe it to them to, to be curious about how they're feeling in those moments. And so that's I honestly, that is one of the biggest things. And the motivation for what I do is hearing those phone calls after the fact after something has happened. And how many people just say, I wish I had known to look for that. I had no idea yawning meant something. Wow, it makes sense. Now, I wish I could turn the time back. You know, I wish I had known that it was okay to gate them. They shouldn't maybe be on the floor playing together, you know, or, you know, our dog gets super excited. I know, because he hasn't learned how to that, you know, people playing on the floor isn't about him or whatever, you know, these kinds of things. So the regret is something that I really, really hear so much of. And that's really what caused me to start failing paws was hearing that, you know, hearing parents say I feel I failed my child, my dog, because when something goes wrong, it's it's not just a, an incident, in that moment, that affects generations. The, it really affects a lot. It's a lot. It's very, very complex. When when a situation falls apart, even if a bite hasn't happened, it is so traumatic making a decision, possibly re homing when it doesn't work out. There's a lot of really uncomfortable feelings for everybody. So learning about dog body language and communication, and how to set them up for success and what to look for. It really does save heartache, you know, and that's that's what I don't know, that's super, super important to me. To reach people in that way.
Libby 52:51
Hearing that I wish I would have known is is heartbreaking.
Jennifer 52:57
Yeah, it is heartbreaking.
Emily 53:00
And I can hear you have such tremendous compassion for the people, the families and the dogs, which I just want to commend you on. I think that's so needed. And your program is just beautiful that way because, yeah, anyone who brings the dog into their home wants it to be successful in a loving, fabulous situation until the day the dog passes from old age. If they just had a few more tools and a little bit more knowledge, I think we could get less phone calls an email.
Jennifer 53:30
No, I agree. And I think I think we have an I was very much this person too. I really, I really felt I was dog savvy. I really and I, I am not a fan of the phrase, but I use it purposely because I don't know that I was so open to learning it because I grew up with dogs. And in my own mind, I felt like I knew dogs. And you know, I don't know why people feel discomfort that there's more to learn. There's more to learn about each of us as human beings and individuals. And I don't know what makes it different and why we just think a dog is a dog is a dog and not look at it. But it is an interesting barrier there that I wish we could break through and and just have it become a knowledge that our dogs we need to learn about them to. We're gonna have a dog let's learn about their body language. Let's learn how they communicate. Let's learn those things. I don't know why we so easily assume we know all that. But I do think we somehow have that going on and yeah. And I don't know how to use that like, you know without saying I'm not trying to say you know you don't know this or you're uninformed or uneducated. But I am saying that You know, there's more, there's always more and it's exciting to learn more. And do we always want to understand each other better? Are we always working on communication? So why are we not allowing that for our dogs? That's the thing, you know, even give a cat's get a pass, people are like up, they'll scratch you, you know, like, oh, okay, well, they're clear in their communication, like we allow certain things. But with dogs for some reason, we expect so much from them. And we don't, we don't put that responsibility on our part to learn at least that's an eye. If we can answer that question. I'd like how, you know, without offending people, like, just we're encouraging you to continue learning advance your skills? Yeah,
Emily 55:51
well, I one thing I find interesting, going back to your doggy detective worksheet is like, if parents could just change the perspective a little bit as like we're bringing an animal into the home. And almost like an exchange student, you would learn, like, if you had a French exchange student, it would learn French culture and the language. So maybe we can just hopefully change the page and say, You're bringing an animal and this is their language, this is what they need. Enrichment is so important. I think enrichment can be so fun for families to do together, and feeding the dog being a bird and be like, let's do some scavenger hunts help us stuff comes at night. And you know, I think I think if we could change it to like, this is just a new era and the way we understand our dogs, and they're not just dogs,
Jennifer 56:48
right? Right. And there are they are dogs, but I'm really trying to get the kinds of dog were out there in the sense that, you know, we're always increasing learning, growing, expanding our dog aware skills, looking at the ears, the eyes, the tail, the muzzle, looking at context, what's happening? You know, staying curious, I wonder why that just happened. Wow, this tails up, I wonder why. You know, I'm,
Libby 57:22
I'm thinking, as we're having this conversation, that all of this, we accept that all of the other sciences have advanced by leaps and bounds in the past 2025 years. But when it comes to dogs and dog behavior, for some reason, so many of us are stuck in the way we used to do it, because it's the way it was always done. And there's so we can all learn and grow with the science every year, all the time.
Jennifer 57:51
It's really, it's really interesting. And it's one of the most frustrating things in that I experienced in, in the niche that I'm in is that everybody just generally feels they know. You know, they know what they need to know. And as they go into it. It's just, it's painful, when they realize they didn't know what they needed to know. And it and, and now it's not going well, or it could have gone better. And you know, the amount of regret and heartache that we can prevent with just a little more insight and knowledge is just tremendous. If people are open to it,
Emily 58:40
I think so to actually put quotes around the docks. And then I realized that this is not visual medicine, there just aren't. But you're right, like taking it to that next level of being curious and evolving. And then one interesting thing too, is I grew up partially in Vermont, and we've just had those roaming farm dogs. And, you know, there was back then in addition to not being curious, there was also a little bit of like, dog sense in the fact that like, if a dog had a bone, they'd be like, don't you go near that dog when it has gone? You know, and then and then obviously the dogs asleep you don't you don't touch it. There was definitely some like, you know, country brilliance as to, you know, expected of dogs back then that I think has gotten kind of shuffled out of our vernacular that maybe we can bring heart back and then also add in a lot of the new you know, understanding dog body language, which is I don't think we have
Jennifer 59:43
absolutely, absolutely no, you're totally right. I mean, if you got bitten by your dog growing up, would you do? I was in trouble was my fault for sure. But like my shirt, although it's not visual sit on the ground, not the hound. I mean, I like Okay, I'm happy. Yeah, leave them alone shirt that's going to be coming soon too. So, but I mean, it, it is it has changed, it has changed in and I'm not sure why when I do integration, it's not, you know, it's it's about comfort of everybody in the house, you know, it's not just about that dog or my child who wants to do this with the dog it's about is that the right thing for every, you know, Is that comfortable for everybody. And that's a big thing too, you know, I think for parents to understand that your, your child is going to want more than your dog can handle. So having a way to kind of say, you know, we're going to do this today having small goals and, you know, but pacing it, pacing, what happens with the dog is so important, at least we have to help get new unexpecting families, you know, I mean, if we can begin to, you know, get this information with the families that are expecting a baby, you know, we have time, you know, to work on observation of body language, we have time to help them increase their dog aware skills, so that what they model is even better for their younger, you know, young child because babies pick up everything we're doing, and modeling appropriate behavior, engagement interaction is super, super important. And all of that needs to be addressed and assessed. You know, during pregnancy,
Emily 1:01:43
you have a program called dogs and storks so that people who are pregnant can prepare their dog.
Jennifer 1:01:49
Absolutely, we have over 250 licensed educators who offer dogs and storks in their communities, online, many of them and they, you know, through their businesses there. We also have dogs and toddlers. So dogs and storks is preparing families with dogs for life with baby. And dogs and toddlers is preparing families with dogs for life with toddlers, because, you know, most people think about if they do think they think about preparing before the baby, but we're here to say it is ongoing. It's ongoing, always have to prepare for the next stage. So babies grow dogs age adjusting, and every every, every stage is super important.
Emily 1:02:36
Oh, yeah, no, that's fabulous.
Libby 1:02:38
I mean, I'm just thinking of the moment that a baby starts walking, everything changes, everything changes,
Jennifer 1:02:44
it does. And so many times those changes happen, you know, like, super fast, you know, so there's things like you, you know, you went on a vacation, your dog was boarded you, your baby started crawling or walking or cruising. Now you bring your dog home after vacation, you have like a whole new creature in your house, your dogs like what happened, they don't know that that was going to be that was expected and going to be starting and happening. And so it becomes very, very conflicting for the dog. And meanwhile, the parents are feeling oh, they know each other. And so they they have a sense of comfort, and they allow interactions that might lead to definite stress and discomfort. That's often where we see the graphs and the bites.
Emily 1:03:38
So if someone has a new baby, they can go to your website, there's lots of free resources, but they can also hire one of your consultants to come and help with what you call the integration, which I think is a great way to look.
Jennifer 1:03:51
Look at it. Yeah, we, all of our educators have their own businesses and offer private consultations complemented by our materials. And yeah, we encourage people to definitely reach out and get some help, especially for the homecoming period in the first you know, you know, when baby's coming home and and help those first three months. Yeah.
Emily 1:04:18
And if someone was adopting a new dog, and they were like, we're a little bit worried we're going to the shelter bringing it home, you they can hire one of your consultants to help with that as well. Absolutely. Okay. Okay. That's great.
Libby 1:04:32
That's, I mean, it's fabulous that there are trainers who specialize in this and integrating families and dogs. So good for you.
Jennifer 1:04:41
Thank you,
Libby 1:04:42
Jen. I have to say that you have accomplished something amazing here because I'm leaving this conversation feeling more hopeful about dogs. Integrating with families. Working in rescue can be really hard sometimes because we only see them negative side of it, you know, not only but we so often see the negative side of it. And you're you're helping give me hope that it's possible to successfully integrate dogs in families with young kids. So thank you.
Emily 1:05:15
Yeah, thank you. Thank you so much. I know what I think I use the when you know better you do better quote from Maya Angelou almost every episode, but I feel inspired. And I feel like your message and your tools if we can get them out to our entire society, we have a much happier dog family relationship.
Jennifer 1:05:37
Absolutely. Well, that's the name of the game, isn't it? Yeah. happy, healthy and safe.
Libby 1:05:43
Jen, before we let you go, where can people find your website online? What's the address? Family? paws.com?
All right, we'll put that in the show notes. Along with any do you have social media links?
Jennifer 1:05:56
Yes. Just gonna say we are. Family paws official on Instagram and Facebook family paws parent education.
Libby 1:06:05
Yeah. Awesome.
Jennifer 1:06:06
Thank you.
Libby 1:06:07
Oh, thank you so much for your time today. It was what a fabulous conversation.
Emily 1:06:12
Thank you for what you do. It is so needed and it's absolutely a blessing that you're out there.
Jennifer 1:06:18
Thank you so much, you guys. I've really enjoyed it.
Libby 1:06:26
Thanks for tuning in. If you liked this episode, don't forget to rate and review and helps other folks like you find the show. To find out more about our programming and adoptable rescue dogs. You can visit summit dog rescue.org thanks to Mike pesci for the original music and to Alex Lee Ammons and for the love media for graphics production and editing. See you soon on pod to the rescue.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Welcome to pod to the rescue.
Libby 0:11
Rescuing the dog is just the first step. We're here to help with everything that comes next. Hello, everyone, and welcome back to pod to the rescue. I'm Libby.
Emily 0:23
And I'm Emily.
Libby 0:24
And today, we are bringing you an interview with Jennifer Shryock of family pause. And I just have to say, I'm so glad we did this interview.
Emily 0:38
Yeah, I really enjoyed speaking to her. And it made me feel like there's a great program out there for anyone getting a dog who has children in the home.
Libby 0:48
Yeah, we here at Summit dog rescue often see the negative fallout of dogs and little kids. And so it's hard to stay positive about how we can successfully place rescue dogs or any dogs really in a family with young kids. And talking to Jennifer made me feel like it's not only possible, but it could be a beautiful thing, if all parties involved, put in the time to do a little education.
Emily 1:18
We all want our kids to grow up with dogs. My son grew up with dogs. And yeah, we always had dogs in and out of the house. And I think if done right with, you know, mindfulness and education, it can be a beautiful thing. And even if you have road bumps this program can help you get through those bumps.
Libby 1:36
Jennifer Shryock is a certified dog behavior consultant and the proud owner of family paws LLC in Cary, North Carolina. Jennifer has served as a board member of the International childbirth education association, and is also a mother and former special education teacher. Yeah, her website Family paws.org is just an incredible resource. And definitely check it out. If you have kids, if you are a rescue that wants to know how to educate families with kids. It's just a really fabulous, fabulous website. Enjoy this episode, share it with those who would find it helpful. And let us know what you think on social.
Hello, Jennifer Schrock, welcome to pod to the rescue.
Jennifer 2:36
Thank you so much for inviting me.
Libby 2:38
Yeah, we're so glad that you're here. So can you just start by telling us about family paws and why the dog family interaction going well is so near and dear to your heart.
Jennifer 2:50
Well, family paws started because of my dogs and my little my kiddos. We adopted our first German Shepherd when my boys were three in two. And that got me involved in rescue. And not only did I you know, quickly see how wonderful it is to have kids and dogs together. But I also saw the frustrations, the fears and the anxieties that many families brought to the rescue when they would call because, you know, we adopted a dog and I ended up volunteering and doing all sorts of things for rescue. One of the things was answering their voicemails and hearing those calls. And so that sparked more of an interest. And to be honest, I grew up with dogs. I know the importance of the companionship, the love, the confidant, you know, canines as confidence I always talk about they're just, you know, there's nothing like it. So I wanted to help increase the success success for families and dogs alike. Yeah, so this was a good way to do it.
Libby 4:00
It's amazing. And you have a website and a hotline and all sorts of resources for families, right?
Jennifer 4:08
Absolutely. It's important to me, especially with dog and baby toddler dynamics, that families feel that they have support and help when they need it. Right. A lot of times, those are immediate emergency kinds of situations. For example, the call from the hospital, you know, where they're, you know, just had a baby have a dog at home and now all of a sudden, they have real concerns. Or, you know, the other kind of call we often get is maybe they're just experienced a bite or a growl and they're really fearful and I really believe that people need support and help immediately and then guidance as far as resources, but I like to support people right away. So that, you know, they feel like they have a direction and so that we implement safety measures immediately.
Libby 4:59
That such an amazing resource. It's so amazing.
Emily 5:02
I wish that had been around two decades ago because I had a really serious bite on my toddler from my dog. And I had gotten the wrong advice previously about her growling at my toddler. And, you know, having an amazing resource could have changed.
Jennifer 5:22
Absolutely. And you know, it really is so important, I think, when families are going through a situation like this, to help one, validate their concerns, hear what's going on, and be there without judgment kind of be there in the moment, and really tried to listen as carefully as we can to figure out what's going to be the best option for them moving forward, what's going to be the best resource to help them take the next step. But right away, we want to immediately look at management, what we can do right that day, to help get them through the day.
Emily 6:00
One thing that really sparked my interest in speaking with you was that you have this history in rescue. And as you know, our podcast or audience, our, you know, rescue workers and also fosters and adopters. So could you walk us through some of the work that you do with rescues and how to set up a family so that if they do have children, that hopefully they're successful?
Jennifer 6:23
Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I had just mentioned to you guys, we had a temporary foster over the weekend, I was evaluating a dog, my old my son is old enough for a dog, which is unbelievable in itself thinking back. Because growing up, he never knew a time really without a bunch of dogs in the house. So for me, so I'm thinking back to all the rescues all the Fosters, we've had, we foster so many dogs, and it's such a wonderful experience. And now I'm completely forgetting the direction you were going just like my my mind went in a lot of different areas. When you asked me that.
Emily 7:06
Well, that's okay. Yeah. So yeah. So like, if someone was bringing home a dog, you know, how would they prepare in advance? How would you coach somebody who was like, you know, what, my son is now six years old. And we're thinking about getting a family dog and we want to adopt not, you know, shop. So how would you coach someone like that? If they came to you and asked, like, how do we bring the dog home? And how do we prepare in advance?
Jennifer 7:34
Absolutely. The first thing I think many families need to be reminded is that transitions are really, really hard for everybody. So setting expectations ahead of time with your child, but also, and maybe even depending on the age of the child, what I did with my daughter was actually, we had some of our stuffed dogs, you know, the nice good sized dogs and we put them in the crate. And we practice timing of different things. And we said, here's the routine, here's what's going to happen, we're going to have to do this and do that and wrote out a schedule on a whiteboard and things like that. But I think setting expectations for the child if they're old enough, to participate, and you know, to be included in that, but also helping the family to realize that even though you're super excited about bringing this dog home, that transition is super stressful. And everything although you're showering them with love and good intention and all this stuff, for some dogs, that is a completely new and foreign experience carpet is often a foreign experience. So taking it slow, taking it slow. Remember that this dog is not known to your child or to you know, your child's not known to this dog. So making sure that things like a plan for the even the ride home I see a lot of people just throw the kids in the dog in the backseat and away they go you know, things like that. So having expectations about a gradual transition, and a gradual integration. So there's definitely always crates, gates, room dividers, you know, those kinds of things. You know, and taking things slow and and setting everybody up for success in that way.
Libby 9:46
We talk so much about going slow on this podcast. It's I mean, it comes up at critic all the time but going slow. Integrating dogs with kids seems like an it's even more important. for everybody's safety,
Jennifer 10:01
it really is. And, and to clarify, I mean, I think it can be really scary for people you know, as they are not scary but intimidating when we say, you know, take your time, it's gradual or slow. What we mean by that is really observing your dog and comfort level. So when I say go slow, I mean, take it at each animal and each child's pace. Because, you know, if you bring a new puppy home, their amount of energy, and how they might behave, jump be mouthy all those typical puppy things really could be super overwhelming, even for a child who's like, hey, I really want a dog, well, I may really want a dog but not who's scratching me not who's mouthing me, not his, you know, so helping everybody to have comfortable boundaries and know that it's okay. And setting those expectations ahead of time is really, really important. And taking your time, it goes a lot faster than we think. But I definitely encourage people to have kind of a, I always say, three to six month window of adjustment for everybody, when it comes to all aspects of adjusting.
Libby 11:16
I love that. And you mentioned puppy versus an adult dog. How would you prep differently? In those situations, adult dog versus a puppy, you know, a new dog coming into a home with kids?
Jennifer 11:31
You know, that's a really, really interesting question, I was thinking about it ahead of time, I'm gonna say add on to a whole lot different. Because there's going to be separation, I am a big believer in, you know, having when we fostered our dogs, and we have fostered, you know, we did have litters of puppies, and all sorts of different age groups and everything. So we've fostered over seven, eight dogs over the many years. And my kids were fairly young. And so juggling and managing is something that I'm quite familiar with. So taking it slow. And, you know, regardless of if they're a puppy, or they're an adult dog, we're going to still implement management, we're not going to throw them into the whole group. So that being one of the main things, the other thing is, you have to take a puppy out consistently and on a schedule. So do you have to do that with a new dog that may not have any, you know, even if they do have, you know, have haven't checked off at the rescue or the shelter that they their house, you know, they have good manners, they're still going to need to learn how to do it in this house, they're still going to need to have that scheduled for success. So honestly, a lot is quite the same, which I think people think oh, and older dog, we're just going to throw him in, it's going to be fine. You know, the rescue or the shelter said they're good with this, this this, therefore, it should be fine. I'm still going to encourage people to slow down, step back and allow small intervals and observe and allow the dog time to adjust and then includes management setting up activities different. So I, I'm not thinking it's all that different. You still have to 100% supervised, right? You're going to take the creating slow. You're gonna go into socialization stuff. So I'm gonna say it's fairly similar. In my book.
Emily 13:36
Do you think having, you know, if you were a shelter or rescue? Do you think it's important to you know, try to play stocks that have previous experience with kids in homes with kids? And maybe not take that leap? If you don't have any knowledge? I guess that's where we kind of struggled sometimes in skew is like, you know, learning on someone's kid is something that always makes me nervous. So we tend to like unless it has some kid experience, be really cautious, extremely cautious about placing, like an unknown history dog in a home with kids.
Jennifer 14:16
Hmm, well, yeah, this is a loaded question, right? There's flip sides always there's a good and a bad. So just because they've been exposed to children before doesn't mean it was a positive experience. It could have been very much the underlying reason why they are there. But maybe the family didn't really even whether they came clean or whether or whether they even knew it was not going so well. So So exposure doesn't necessarily mean a good son always a good thing, right? It could be that those kids were running around and everything was out of control and the dog had previous experience that was quite stressful. So what I really liked is to observe dogs, you know, in a variety of situations, and again, I can't emphasize it enough, where, you know, you've got to take it slow. And this is where I think rushing that relationship when they come home. You know, even if a rescue has seen a dog or knows a dog has previous experience, that's fantastic. However, that doesn't really mean it's, it's not a just free for all because of that, right? I think sometimes that can give people false sense of security. And then they think, Oh, well, he's great with dogs, so my kids can do anything to him. And that's often what we hear, right? We do hear that. So when people say, my dog is so good, then they start to say, he let some do bing, bing, bing, you know, A, B, and C. And as soon as they start to go down that path, I say, Well, you know, are those things really good? So let's talk about that, you know, it, you know, are those are those behaviors that, you know, your dog should tolerate, like if my, my kids, and, you know, if every time my kids saw my, my, my sister, my sister, let my kids Yank her hair and, you know, get up in her face and do all these things. I wouldn't say she's the best aunt ever, because she allows them just to invade her space and be inappropriate. I think we have to change what those what we want this to look like, right? I mean, obviously, the label good dog is, is an issue overall. But I do think that people, when they see oh, good with kids, I think people let their guard down. And they kind of make a sweeping generalization. That concerns me, I think we still no matter what need to approach it the same way. Your dog is just like when a dog isn't resource guarding fantastic, great, let's reinforce the heck out of that assuming that there could be right or that the dog may choose to resource guard, let's let's work and reward the behavior that we're liking. But let's not push it
Libby 17:16
want something else is that all kids are different to just because a dog was fine and one family doesn't mean that the other family with different types of kids, different personalities, different energy levels is going to be fine in that whole?
Jennifer 17:31
Absolutely, absolutely. And that's, that's so confusing for people to you know, we run into this when someone has a second or third child. And you know, the dog has a sensitivity to one or the other and or grandparent has, you know, has had so many grandchildren around this dog, but there's that one grandchild. And that's one of the reasons I say babies grow dogs age, we have to adjust at every stage, it's hugely important. And so we have to look at the context, we have to look at the situation, look at all there's a lot of variables, right, that we're looking at. And so I tend to when I see good with kids, I say, Well, you know, in this moment, right now, here's what we're seeing. But we always need to work on what is what is the best. The most respectful, least stressful, interaction and scenarios that we can have.
Emily 18:35
I love I love that just thinking about it, you know, from that perspective, that just like us behavior changes, given our environment or our mood, or how we feel that day. So to make a sweeping generalization is, is probably not a great way to set people up for success to really like study the dog in front of you, and learn body language and kind of assess like you're saying very slowly, every step.
Jennifer 19:04
Right. And I mean, this is true, you know, I, again, you know, looking at the dog, I had hear it, she ignored some of my cats, but not all my cats again. So I can't say great with every single cat in the world. But I can say in this situation in this circumstance, you know, here's what I observed. But I always want to reinforce the good stuff.
Emily 19:30
That's so interesting, because we say that about dogs, like we would never say like, oh, this dog is great with all I'm not great with every Yeah, exactly. But kids we I think myself being guilty, like I think like you're good with kids or you're bad with kids, like you know, but you're right. There's like a whole it's all situational and history learning history. And so it's imperative that the people really watch closely and go slow.
Jennifer 19:55
Absolutely, absolutely. And allow, allow that observation. Shouldn't so you can start to really get to know the dog and their comfort level and also to the child and how they're responding with the dog. I mean, you know, so there's a lot of factors there taking it slow.
Libby 20:12
Are there any specific skills that foster families can teach dogs so that if they are placed into a home with kids, it can be more successful?
Jennifer 20:24
Oh, absolutely. I really like I love touch. A skill that not only is it a great way to move a dog out of a situation, but could also help and be an interactive thing that a child can easily do without putting their hands on the dog. I, one of the skills that we did with our, our large large dog was teach him a nice side laying down posture, so that he wasn't so overwhelming with his giant size, but I love a default set, you know, for on the floor mat is great having a place you know, so that, I mean, those are great ideals. But I, you know, all those things. So cute little tricks are always good to also add because kids can engage and do that kind of thing. That's one of the reasons I really like touch. You know, it, there's so many ways to incorporate that and use it. And it's not physically touching the dog.
Libby 21:33
Right. So rather than laying all over the dog, hugging the dog, and knowing the dog, you can play a game of touch, you can do you know, show us your tricks, that kind of thing.
Jennifer 21:45
Show us your tricks side and see, and behaviors that the dog knows has confidence in feels good. Okay, touch means this, I got that, you know, that's a great way to build, you know, have that comfort around a child in an unfamiliar setting. And as they adjust, having that as a transitional skill, I always think Matt is phenomenal as a transitional skill as well. You know, being able to, you know, have that met, go to the new home or have that behavior. So well, you know, have the fluency be so good that the dog is like, oh, yeah, okay, I know what to do when I see that thing. You know, same with when you you know, take the dog to the vet, the dogs like, oh, okay, I know what to do. I don't like this room. But man, that mat. Magic happens there. Okay, cool. It appears everywhere. So that's kind of cool, too. Yeah, pretty important. Those things, and creating, I mean, craving and being able to be behind a gate, those are essential. I mean, absolutely. In any home. I mean, I think across the board, I really think all dogs need to be exposed to gradual separation with positive experiences, and allow that opportunity to succeed, you know, and build slowly, I think often, management is thrown into place as a desperation, and everybody's kind of stressed. And it often leads to a lot of frustration and a lot of anxiety and destruction of houses and that kind of thing. So we really want to practice that. And that's a huge help if Foster's exposed dogs to play yards, gates, those kinds of things as well.
Libby 23:30
Do you have any suggestions for families who want to adopt on how to choose the right dog to adopt to bring into a family?
Jennifer 23:41
Absolutely, I think you really want a dog that personality, energy wise is going to mesh with the family really well. But we're looking for a dog who is choosing the family one of the ways that our girls Sadie came to us as you know, she absolutely chose us at a you know, it was like, Ooh, happy, happy, happy, happy, wanted to be with us. You know, when you go to meet a dog or you're visiting, do they choose to engage with you? Or are they saying yeah, you know, no, thanks. You know, I can take it or leave it. You know, having that with children is essential. You know, are they interested or not? You really have to have a people a dog that really enjoys being around people if you're going to have them in with children. Definitely want to see how the dog you know, how they respond to novel stimuli, you know, changes in appearance, a lot of different things. I mean, you know, when I went to go assess these dogs, I had my bag of tricks with you know, everything from masks to hats to you know, loud noises, different toys, those kinds of things. You know what happens when ball Calls are out what happens when there's a remote control car? So having a sense and feel for energy level that they're going to do? Is this family constantly going to ballgames? Are they constantly then, you know, a ball crazy dog may not be a great fit depending on what that looks like. What? Yeah. So I mean, just knowing what they're looking for, I think some people have a type of look, they're often looking for and think less about. Either the, you know, sometimes people go into it with I have the, alright, I speak for myself. That's how I went into it. When I first went to rescue and said, hey, I'm interested. I want I knew I wanted a German Shepherd. All right, that said, Did I really know what I was getting into? No, I grew up with Cavaliers and Golden's I had an obsession with German Shepherds. But they were so beautiful. And so I went to rescue and said, I'd love you know, we would like to adopt a puppy my, and they pretty much said, No, you know, because my boys were three and two, which was the greatest. It was, it was awesome that they said no. And I had a lot of learning to do. And we adopted a four year old dog based on personality based on, he was easygoing, he had a nice calm energy. He was responsive to all of us. You know, he was super friendly. You know, all those things, you know, but they really have to choose their people choose like to be with, you know, not doing the outskirts or we're really anxious. You know, when you have kids, it's not necessarily the time to pick a project, a dog that's going to I, I say, Project dog, because I'm really good at finding those. And it's, you know, and it's, and we are drawn to them. But it's super important that we have as an outgoing kind of roll with it kind of dog.
Libby 27:09
Yeah, it seems like all of our dogs and rescue lately have been project dogs, it's really tough.
Jennifer 27:17
Well, and there's, you know, those are great dogs, too. But when there's toddlers, or really young children that is super, super hard.
Libby 27:25
I love your point about how does the dog react to novel stimuli? Because that's something I would never have even thought about what happens when your kid comes out of the playroom wearing a tutu and a cowboy hat and waving a baton? How
Jennifer 27:42
if, right, we're Yeah, laser or, like, you know, Halloween is coming. So this is one of the times of the year that is super hard for dogs. And, you know, kids wear costumes to be scary and spooky. And to play the part and dress up and act up, which leads to animation, it leads to all different things, you know, changes in behavior. You know, in the predictable looking toddler or child can be really, you know, my daughter came running in with a bike helmet on sunglasses, and she came in the side door versus the regular front door, and then totally stuck, you know, startled the dog. But you have to think about those things. How, what's the recovery look like? Okay, so if your dog spooks a little easily goes, Hey, what's that? Do they go? Hey, what's that for the rest of the day? And they never go near that. And they, they, you know, avoid the area where that appeared? Or, you know, what does that look like? What's the recovery time look like?
Emily 28:44
I think that's a key thing that people don't know what to look for. I have to say that I'm kind of having an aha moment over here on responding to novel stimuli, as you know, and how do they how do they respond? I think that's a great. A great way to assess a dog for a child family home.
Jennifer 29:03
Yeah, no, it's it really is super important. And having that management a dog, I'm telling you what dogs that had been exposed. First of all, I really believe strongly that exposing to management, exposing to Play Arts, exposing to gates prior to going to their new home. One, if the foster home can say, hey, you know what we've been practicing this year, it's a great model to help in that transitional period as they move in. So not only will the family say, oh, that's kind of the norm to do this. Cool. You know, and so you're actually helping to show them that, you know, this is a good idea. And this is normal. It's not a bad thing. I think a lot of people think, Oh, I don't want to separate my dog. We want to include our dog. Yes, you do. But your dog also, your dog also needs breaks. especially in homes with children. And so that's a huge gift Foster's can give is practicing those things and then showing the family look, he's really good at this, we've set this up, and this is how to do it. And that that can make it really good. The other thing we're finding a lot of times now is that dogs are not getting rest, and they're not getting really good sleep. So, you know, that is hugely important. When you mentioned the puppy, that's one of the big things, puppies need their rest. So, you know, having a place, you know, with my, when my, when I had puppies, I had the kids use a, you know, one of those presentation boards, like a three A Hard TriFold board that you can stand up, you know, for a presentation, you put it on a table or whatever, I got tall ones, and we use those, I let the kids decorate it and we put, you know, pictures of the dogs sleeping or put a stop sign. And then I would have a timer that the kids we could set the timer and the puppy was going to nap when the timer went off, then we together would take down that visual divider. But during that time the puppy was resting. So it blocked the visual of the rest of the room going on. And it was safe because the Puppy couldn't pull it in the crate like a blanket to create a calm space. It can decrease stimuli for the puppy. And it also allowed the child the boundary of during this time when you see this. That's his time downtime, we're going to leave them alone. So that can be super helpful to us. Our dogs need rest. They need uninterrupted quiet at times.
Libby 31:56
Absolutely. They need more sleep than we think they do. Even adult dogs. Absolutely. And if you've ever experienced an overtired toddler, then that gives you a little insight into why overtired dog can be like to
Jennifer 32:12
well, and many of them are many of the dogs that we're seeing who are you know, have folks working at home? Have kids that were homeschooled in the last year are going, what are you doing? What do you do? What do you do all the time? And so it's become? You know, that's a lot of what we're seeing I? I'm sure you guys are too.
Libby 32:33
So how can families adjust their expectations of what life would the dog is really like, you know, you you talked about setting up a visual signal of okay, the pup, we're not going to play with the puppy all day the puppy is going to sleep for X number of hours this many times a day? And how can shelter and rescue volunteers? Coach adopters?
Jennifer 32:56
That is a great question. And I will tell you that in a perfect world. You know, when I started family paws, it was really to benefit rescues and to provide educational resources, you know, and it especially to share with families, newly families that have just adopted a dog so that we could help that transition. And offer those kinds of services. It's really, really, really important. So I would just encourage them to continue learning. I you know, I, I hear what you're saying it's very hard, you're limited in the amount of time that you have with them. I would encourage the the application process to be very thorough, you know, describe what a typical day looks like, what what, what would the ideal dog look like? Describe for me this, you know, and seeing where they're coming from, I find it's really telling when people people do people are looking for what they know. So, you know, coming from the background that I was coming from as well. Our experience when we're new parents or parents, and we're looking to get a dog, we're usually basing our desires on previous experience or desires of our childhood dog. So asking a bit about their childhood dog experience. What you know that if you're given that opportunity, that's a that's a really great, that's a really interesting question. You know, did you ever I, you know, that I like to talk with people and find out what, what that looked like for them. You know, and when I hear oh, we always slept with the dog or we did this or did that we can talk about it. But again, you know, I do realize it's limited in time, but it's one of the it's a really good question because that's So often what they're looking for, you know, or they have the expectations of this dog resembling something like their family blog. And times have changed a bit right? Times has changed and how we train thank goodness, how we look at dogs, how we know so much more, or at least take, you know, look at body language, you know. And so, yeah, so it is interesting to see that stuff.
Libby 35:29
Yeah, I growing up, I didn't have dogs, but I lived in a neighborhood where the dogs, most of the dogs roamed. And so, you know, my friends had dogs that were the neighborhood dogs who would come over. And that's a very different environment from today's family dog. So it's important to think about those differences when we're talking about how we want our lives to look like with a dog. Also, I mean, I'm, how old am I? I'm 35. Back. I mean, when I was growing up, we didn't take dogs everywhere. We didn't take dogs to every soccer game, and to every coffee run, you know?
Jennifer 36:12
Right. Right. It is different. And so that's really where expectations come from. And if you ask that question, and, you know, again, I don't think you know, it's, it's hard to know where that would fit in. But that's part of the conversation I love to have with people, because it gives me a lot of insight, especially when you have two parents, two adults that have different families of origin and their dogs, you know, one might have had dogs that were outside all the time, and one might have dogs that were sitting at the dining room table, I mean, you can have a wide range of variety. And so it's good to know that so that you can help kind of get a feel for what those expectations are. The other thing is, you know, asking what does a relationship with their child? You know, what does the ideal relationship with a dog and child look like? What did they what are they expecting there? You know, those are really important and telling questions.
Libby 37:12
I think that's so important to just make sure that we're on the same page. So often we're not and we make assumptions. And that's not good for anyone.
Jennifer 37:21
Absolutely,
Emily 37:22
yeah. And hopefully, if parents could get just even a 10 or 15 minute, you know, kind of educational discussion about how things might have changed for dogs in the last 20 or 25 years. I know. You know, now new families, I'm sure things are different for their dogs rather than how it was when they were growing up. Like you were saying lucky, like dogs roam free, and choke chains were very common back then. So if you if you hadn't been updated, and this was the first talk you were getting in 25 years, it might be good for families to learn, like, oh, so things have changed a little bit. And in order to have a really, you know, successful family dog, it might be best to learn.
Jennifer 38:08
Yeah, I mean, it makes sense, right? You're gonna do what you know. Right? Exactly. And so you defer and default back to what you grew up with, and what you knew, because that is what you know, and so, you know, if you know that upfront, then we can say, ah, you know, and introduce some new concepts and new ideas. And that opens the door.
Libby 38:32
I just, and that's why I think that your project, your website, your hotline is so fabulous. Like, what an amazing resource for this education. Yeah, we're lucky to have you.
Jennifer 38:44
Thank you. This is definitely an area I feel very strongly about. And I appreciate rescue for sure.
Emily 38:51
It sounds like if people, you know, prepared for a new rescue, what do you think like two, three weeks of prepping and educating the family and getting on the same page? What would you recommend before you bring the dog home?
Jennifer 39:04
I think that, um, you know, assume, yeah, I think just being able to have that time so that they can get whatever items they're going to need having a checklist for, you know, suggested items suggested practice. You know, it would be great if there were in a perfect world I'd love if there was a little class that you know, was available, so the kids could be included in that too. You know, so but being able to having having that information ahead of time so that they have all the equipment and tools all the enrichment lined up set up. It just would be really really, really helpful. I think a lot of people wait until Okay, the dogs here and yeah, you have to wait a little bit to find out size font, you know, fit harnesses and do all that. stuff or whatever it is you're going to be using and find out what they're putting, you know, toys, likes, dislikes, all that stuff too. But having things ahead of time that are going to be, especially the enrichment ideas, you know, things like that, that is going to immediately be implemented, would be really helpful. Yeah.
Libby 40:20
So where are you going to put the crate? Where are you going to put the baby gate? When is Kong time? That kind of thing?
Jennifer 40:26
Yeah, thinking it through, when are the busiest times of the day? When's transition, you know, paying attention to the rhythm of the house before the dogs going to arrive and saying who's where when, you know? So that's, that's a constant juggling act, you know, you know, the kids are going to be, we're getting ready in the morning, that's a hectic time, you know, who's going to take the dog out who's going to be you know, depending on age, I'm thinking you know, it different ages require different things, you know. So, there's all sorts of things, but those details, a little bit of planning can mean a lot more success.
Emily 41:10
I love that. I, I noticed on your website, you have a cool coloring sheet that people can print off and do with their children where it's the body language dogs, I thought that could be a really great way to prep. You know, maybe watch a couple of body language videos, and then do the coloring sheets. Identifying you know, lick lick and Yahoo and Bing I think it's called being a doggy detective, right?
Jennifer 41:36
Yes. Yeah. Doggy detective ears eyes tail muzzle. Yeah, the clues of the puzzle and love it. You know, there's, I think, I think there's always good times to be doggy detective, but absolutely, um, more than a family can do ahead of time. You know, looking at body language, and even even practicing with videos, you know, looking at the videos, identifying things for older children. I'm amazed you know, I think people underestimate how much kids do pick up a really with body language. Once you see it you don't unseen I do find that if you play kind of that. What do you see game with kids? That often they do catch things a lot faster than the adults and and they're really good at identifying it. So that can be a fun game. And there's certainly plenty of videos to look at body language. On. Yeah, online.
Libby 42:37
That's so smart.
Jennifer 42:38
And I love you mentioned the coloring sheets. Because yeah, that would be fabulous. To do ahead of time.
Emily 42:44
Yeah.
Libby 42:45
So speaking about education, you have a fabulous video series on your website about kiss to dismiss. And I would love to talk about this because we see it so often on social media, a cute little video of it. I'm cute in quotation marks, listeners, have a dog licking the baby in the face usually accompanied with some kind of caption, they love each other. It's going so well. She's giving kisses to the baby. Can you explain briefly for our listeners? What is kiss to dismiss? And why our dogs are maybe not actually kissing babies?
Jennifer 43:25
That's a great question. And I love this subject. So I'm really I started. It's funny, because due to the phone calls I would receive over and over and over again, you know, as a behavior person, I love patterns. And I notice, huh, that's interesting. So many of these, these types of calls they're mentioning, you know, the parents seemed very confused, because they always thought the dog loved the baby because of the licking. And so, you know, over time, I started looking at more and more videos and seeing that pattern. And, you know, just for something to help my clients look at it from a different point of view. I started referencing as kiss to dismiss and as something that really your dog may be doing to increase distance. And I thought about it from the way of how many times does a dog look us in the face, we move away? It you know, it's to some degree that simple, you know, it does increase distance. And so instead of looking at it as Oh, it's love and affection. We need to stop and look at everything. Usually with Kiss to dismiss. The consistent things that I do see are going to be things like the dog is checking in looking to the trusted adult for praise or guidance looking away. Like, they're almost saying, Help me, help me, you know, so sometimes the child is not old enough. So classic situation, the baby's crawling the dogs hanging out laying down comfortable, you know, doesn't want to get up from its comfy spot, the baby keeps going, the dog might do a head turn, tongue flick. And you know, the baby continues to get close. And at this point, the dog might look to the trusted adult, again, you're gonna see a change in eyes, you might see some well I turn aways, changes in breathing. And if the child continues to approach, that's when we're going to see the kids to dismiss. So it goes from, you know, maybe there might have been a flick, but now we're more seeing pushing away, where the dog is, like, move it. So it's more intense. Everything in the facial muscles is tense. And it's a combination of signals. So I've definitely seen that and it, you know, time and time again, I will say most, in almost, I would say, many, if not, most of the cases I do, where there's been a growl, and especially a bite kiss to dismiss is involved. It's fascinating. It is fascinating. And it's really, really, really interesting, because it's very misunderstood. And what I'm referencing, at times can almost be it can present almost as an inhibited bite, it gets pretty intense. So, but it's, it's definitely concerning, you know, one of those interesting signals, and unfortunately,
Emily 46:48
I'm probably all over, you know, Instagram and Tiktok videos of it. Obviously, think it's adorable and don't know. So it's those cases of like, a little education could save a lot of suffering.
Jennifer 47:05
And yeah, and one of the really big things that I noticed about kids to dismiss is the tension. And often the tension in the in the face. So a leg so sometimes, you know, a dog might lick, you know, and it's an it's fine. However, that can change. So, you know, one moment to the next can look very different. And so we have to be mindful of that your dog might enjoy something. But that doesn't mean we want to repeat it time and time again, and we don't really want young babies are crawling babies crawling towards the dog, you know, we always want to give dogs a choice as much as possible. And definitely an unfamiliar baby crawling on the floor, eye level with a dog is going to make them uncomfortable, especially if they're hanging out in a cozy spot. So we you know, we want to look at those things I find kiss to dismiss is very misunderstood, as well as a dog when they lay on their back. That's another one I hear about often from parents is, oh, I don't understand he was on his back. And then you know, he growled or bit them. And it really is super important to know, like, first of all, your dog might have wanted petting at first, but maybe wasn't prepared for the child to hover over them and to be in their space. And maybe the petting went on too long. And and sometimes that rolling on their back is a total tap app. So you know, we really do want to look at those things. But these are often misunderstood. So yeah, more information needed.
Libby 48:48
Yeah, I, I'm thinking back to our episode with Michael Shikashio. And our episode on body language, how usually a bite or aggressive behavior is preceded by a dozen other signals that we just blew right by we didn't see. And it's so important that parents start to recognize and kids if they're old enough start to recognize these signals.
Jennifer 49:12
Oh, yeah, definitely. It's amazing. It's amazing once you start looking at them, and really fine tuning your observation skills really important.
Emily 49:22
Could you discuss just a little bit about those phone calls that you have received over the years you've been doing this we get similar emails from people where it has not gone well.
Jennifer 49:34
You know what it looks like? All too often is a family that has tremendous regret and says I wish I'd known and that that is really what makes me incredibly sad is when you know everybody is everybody is doing the best that they know to do. But the reality is our dogs are complex. X our dogs have a communication system of their own. And we owe it to them, to continue learning about them to learn about their likes, their dislikes, their comfort, you know, and how they communicate. You know, so we, we just, we expect so much of our dogs, you know, you know, even even the example of just, you know, leaving a shelter or coming home, that ride in the car, come home, and then we want you to go out and meet the whole neighborhood to, you know, we really do throw them in a lot of crazy situations. And they don't have a way to indicate other than their body language, that they're uncomfortable. And so we owe it to them to, to be curious about how they're feeling in those moments. And so that's I honestly, that is one of the biggest things. And the motivation for what I do is hearing those phone calls after the fact after something has happened. And how many people just say, I wish I had known to look for that. I had no idea yawning meant something. Wow, it makes sense. Now, I wish I could turn the time back. You know, I wish I had known that it was okay to gate them. They shouldn't maybe be on the floor playing together, you know, or, you know, our dog gets super excited. I know, because he hasn't learned how to that, you know, people playing on the floor isn't about him or whatever, you know, these kinds of things. So the regret is something that I really, really hear so much of. And that's really what caused me to start failing paws was hearing that, you know, hearing parents say I feel I failed my child, my dog, because when something goes wrong, it's it's not just a, an incident, in that moment, that affects generations. The, it really affects a lot. It's a lot. It's very, very complex. When when a situation falls apart, even if a bite hasn't happened, it is so traumatic making a decision, possibly re homing when it doesn't work out. There's a lot of really uncomfortable feelings for everybody. So learning about dog body language and communication, and how to set them up for success and what to look for. It really does save heartache, you know, and that's that's what I don't know, that's super, super important to me. To reach people in that way.
Libby 52:51
Hearing that I wish I would have known is is heartbreaking.
Jennifer 52:57
Yeah, it is heartbreaking.
Emily 53:00
And I can hear you have such tremendous compassion for the people, the families and the dogs, which I just want to commend you on. I think that's so needed. And your program is just beautiful that way because, yeah, anyone who brings the dog into their home wants it to be successful in a loving, fabulous situation until the day the dog passes from old age. If they just had a few more tools and a little bit more knowledge, I think we could get less phone calls an email.
Jennifer 53:30
No, I agree. And I think I think we have an I was very much this person too. I really, I really felt I was dog savvy. I really and I, I am not a fan of the phrase, but I use it purposely because I don't know that I was so open to learning it because I grew up with dogs. And in my own mind, I felt like I knew dogs. And you know, I don't know why people feel discomfort that there's more to learn. There's more to learn about each of us as human beings and individuals. And I don't know what makes it different and why we just think a dog is a dog is a dog and not look at it. But it is an interesting barrier there that I wish we could break through and and just have it become a knowledge that our dogs we need to learn about them to. We're gonna have a dog let's learn about their body language. Let's learn how they communicate. Let's learn those things. I don't know why we so easily assume we know all that. But I do think we somehow have that going on and yeah. And I don't know how to use that like, you know without saying I'm not trying to say you know you don't know this or you're uninformed or uneducated. But I am saying that You know, there's more, there's always more and it's exciting to learn more. And do we always want to understand each other better? Are we always working on communication? So why are we not allowing that for our dogs? That's the thing, you know, even give a cat's get a pass, people are like up, they'll scratch you, you know, like, oh, okay, well, they're clear in their communication, like we allow certain things. But with dogs for some reason, we expect so much from them. And we don't, we don't put that responsibility on our part to learn at least that's an eye. If we can answer that question. I'd like how, you know, without offending people, like, just we're encouraging you to continue learning advance your skills? Yeah,
Emily 55:51
well, I one thing I find interesting, going back to your doggy detective worksheet is like, if parents could just change the perspective a little bit as like we're bringing an animal into the home. And almost like an exchange student, you would learn, like, if you had a French exchange student, it would learn French culture and the language. So maybe we can just hopefully change the page and say, You're bringing an animal and this is their language, this is what they need. Enrichment is so important. I think enrichment can be so fun for families to do together, and feeding the dog being a bird and be like, let's do some scavenger hunts help us stuff comes at night. And you know, I think I think if we could change it to like, this is just a new era and the way we understand our dogs, and they're not just dogs,
Jennifer 56:48
right? Right. And there are they are dogs, but I'm really trying to get the kinds of dog were out there in the sense that, you know, we're always increasing learning, growing, expanding our dog aware skills, looking at the ears, the eyes, the tail, the muzzle, looking at context, what's happening? You know, staying curious, I wonder why that just happened. Wow, this tails up, I wonder why. You know, I'm,
Libby 57:22
I'm thinking, as we're having this conversation, that all of this, we accept that all of the other sciences have advanced by leaps and bounds in the past 2025 years. But when it comes to dogs and dog behavior, for some reason, so many of us are stuck in the way we used to do it, because it's the way it was always done. And there's so we can all learn and grow with the science every year, all the time.
Jennifer 57:51
It's really, it's really interesting. And it's one of the most frustrating things in that I experienced in, in the niche that I'm in is that everybody just generally feels they know. You know, they know what they need to know. And as they go into it. It's just, it's painful, when they realize they didn't know what they needed to know. And it and, and now it's not going well, or it could have gone better. And you know, the amount of regret and heartache that we can prevent with just a little more insight and knowledge is just tremendous. If people are open to it,
Emily 58:40
I think so to actually put quotes around the docks. And then I realized that this is not visual medicine, there just aren't. But you're right, like taking it to that next level of being curious and evolving. And then one interesting thing too, is I grew up partially in Vermont, and we've just had those roaming farm dogs. And, you know, there was back then in addition to not being curious, there was also a little bit of like, dog sense in the fact that like, if a dog had a bone, they'd be like, don't you go near that dog when it has gone? You know, and then and then obviously the dogs asleep you don't you don't touch it. There was definitely some like, you know, country brilliance as to, you know, expected of dogs back then that I think has gotten kind of shuffled out of our vernacular that maybe we can bring heart back and then also add in a lot of the new you know, understanding dog body language, which is I don't think we have
Jennifer 59:43
absolutely, absolutely no, you're totally right. I mean, if you got bitten by your dog growing up, would you do? I was in trouble was my fault for sure. But like my shirt, although it's not visual sit on the ground, not the hound. I mean, I like Okay, I'm happy. Yeah, leave them alone shirt that's going to be coming soon too. So, but I mean, it, it is it has changed, it has changed in and I'm not sure why when I do integration, it's not, you know, it's it's about comfort of everybody in the house, you know, it's not just about that dog or my child who wants to do this with the dog it's about is that the right thing for every, you know, Is that comfortable for everybody. And that's a big thing too, you know, I think for parents to understand that your, your child is going to want more than your dog can handle. So having a way to kind of say, you know, we're going to do this today having small goals and, you know, but pacing it, pacing, what happens with the dog is so important, at least we have to help get new unexpecting families, you know, I mean, if we can begin to, you know, get this information with the families that are expecting a baby, you know, we have time, you know, to work on observation of body language, we have time to help them increase their dog aware skills, so that what they model is even better for their younger, you know, young child because babies pick up everything we're doing, and modeling appropriate behavior, engagement interaction is super, super important. And all of that needs to be addressed and assessed. You know, during pregnancy,
Emily 1:01:43
you have a program called dogs and storks so that people who are pregnant can prepare their dog.
Jennifer 1:01:49
Absolutely, we have over 250 licensed educators who offer dogs and storks in their communities, online, many of them and they, you know, through their businesses there. We also have dogs and toddlers. So dogs and storks is preparing families with dogs for life with baby. And dogs and toddlers is preparing families with dogs for life with toddlers, because, you know, most people think about if they do think they think about preparing before the baby, but we're here to say it is ongoing. It's ongoing, always have to prepare for the next stage. So babies grow dogs age adjusting, and every every, every stage is super important.
Emily 1:02:36
Oh, yeah, no, that's fabulous.
Libby 1:02:38
I mean, I'm just thinking of the moment that a baby starts walking, everything changes, everything changes,
Jennifer 1:02:44
it does. And so many times those changes happen, you know, like, super fast, you know, so there's things like you, you know, you went on a vacation, your dog was boarded you, your baby started crawling or walking or cruising. Now you bring your dog home after vacation, you have like a whole new creature in your house, your dogs like what happened, they don't know that that was going to be that was expected and going to be starting and happening. And so it becomes very, very conflicting for the dog. And meanwhile, the parents are feeling oh, they know each other. And so they they have a sense of comfort, and they allow interactions that might lead to definite stress and discomfort. That's often where we see the graphs and the bites.
Emily 1:03:38
So if someone has a new baby, they can go to your website, there's lots of free resources, but they can also hire one of your consultants to come and help with what you call the integration, which I think is a great way to look.
Jennifer 1:03:51
Look at it. Yeah, we, all of our educators have their own businesses and offer private consultations complemented by our materials. And yeah, we encourage people to definitely reach out and get some help, especially for the homecoming period in the first you know, you know, when baby's coming home and and help those first three months. Yeah.
Emily 1:04:18
And if someone was adopting a new dog, and they were like, we're a little bit worried we're going to the shelter bringing it home, you they can hire one of your consultants to help with that as well. Absolutely. Okay. Okay. That's great.
Libby 1:04:32
That's, I mean, it's fabulous that there are trainers who specialize in this and integrating families and dogs. So good for you.
Jennifer 1:04:41
Thank you,
Libby 1:04:42
Jen. I have to say that you have accomplished something amazing here because I'm leaving this conversation feeling more hopeful about dogs. Integrating with families. Working in rescue can be really hard sometimes because we only see them negative side of it, you know, not only but we so often see the negative side of it. And you're you're helping give me hope that it's possible to successfully integrate dogs in families with young kids. So thank you.
Emily 1:05:15
Yeah, thank you. Thank you so much. I know what I think I use the when you know better you do better quote from Maya Angelou almost every episode, but I feel inspired. And I feel like your message and your tools if we can get them out to our entire society, we have a much happier dog family relationship.
Jennifer 1:05:37
Absolutely. Well, that's the name of the game, isn't it? Yeah. happy, healthy and safe.
Libby 1:05:43
Jen, before we let you go, where can people find your website online? What's the address? Family? paws.com?
All right, we'll put that in the show notes. Along with any do you have social media links?
Jennifer 1:05:56
Yes. Just gonna say we are. Family paws official on Instagram and Facebook family paws parent education.
Libby 1:06:05
Yeah. Awesome.
Jennifer 1:06:06
Thank you.
Libby 1:06:07
Oh, thank you so much for your time today. It was what a fabulous conversation.
Emily 1:06:12
Thank you for what you do. It is so needed and it's absolutely a blessing that you're out there.
Jennifer 1:06:18
Thank you so much, you guys. I've really enjoyed it.
Libby 1:06:26
Thanks for tuning in. If you liked this episode, don't forget to rate and review and helps other folks like you find the show. To find out more about our programming and adoptable rescue dogs. You can visit summit dog rescue.org thanks to Mike pesci for the original music and to Alex Lee Ammons and for the love media for graphics production and editing. See you soon on pod to the rescue.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai