Deconstructing Aggressive Behavior with Michael ShikashioWe are thrilled to present today’s guest, Michael Shikashio. Michael is a world-renowned expert on dog aggression and has an incredible dearth of information he generously shares, which is helpful for owners, rescuers, and trainers alike.
In this conversation, Michael, Emily and Libby define aggression, discuss the ways aggression can present in different dogs (and the different levels of assessing their aggression), and so much more. Make sure to listen to the full episodes, as Michael drops important gems throughout the episode. Michael is an internationally sought out speaker on the topic of aggression - has mentored and presented to thousands of animal professionals. He is the Founder of the Aggression in Dogs Master Course, teaches trainers and consultants in over 25 countries on how to work with aggression cases, and has been featured in countless media, including the New York Times, the New York Post, Web MD, and Women’s Health. Michael Shikashio’s website: https://aggressivedog.com/ Fear Free: https://fearfreepets.com/ and https://www.fearfreehappyhomes.com/ International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants: https://m.iaabc.org/ Certification Council for Professional Dog Trainers: https://www.ccpdt.org/ American College of Veterinary Behaviorists: https://www.dacvb.org/ |
Episode Transcript
Emily 0:09
Welcome to pod to the rescue.
Libby 0:11
Rescuing the dog is just the first step. We're here to help with everything that comes next.
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to pod that the rescue. I'm Libby.
Emily 0:23
And I'm Emily.
Libby 0:25
And we are so excited to bring you this first episode of season two, we interviewed Michael Shikashio who is a world renowned expert on dog aggression. And this conversation was so exciting. There were so many gems in there, and I am still just gobsmacked by all the knowledge he just dropped.
Emily 0:49
I am so overwhelmed that he took the time and so grateful that he took the time to speak with us, the gems that we got out of this conversation, I think are so useful to anyone who works in a shelter or Foster's dogs, or has newly adopted a dog over the pandemic. It's really, it was a wonderful conversation. And so full of information, I'm still kind of mulling over in my mind all the topics that we hit in less than an hour.
Libby 1:20
Absolutely. And he offers so many great resources. So if you work with dogs in any capacity, please listen all the way through this episode. It's fantastic.
Emily 1:32
We talked about some myth busting, which I think is so important in order to set our dogs up for success and just ways that we can work with our dogs so that they don't feel the need to display aggressive behavior.
Libby 1:44
Yeah, and I think that this piece of really understanding aggressive behavior better is so important for anyone in the rescue and shelter community.
Emily 1:57
It's true, we try to label a dog as this one's aggressive. That one's not aggressive. But in reality, aggression is just a behavior that that all of us display. And so understanding it and how to work with it and how to avoid it and how not to create it is going to really help so many people in the dog world.
Libby 2:18
One thing that we discussed, but didn't define that we wanted to define for you listeners real quick is the term antecedent. Antecedent refers to the conditions or factors that lead to a behavior. So it's what occurred right before the behavior happened.
Emily 2:34
And one example Michael gave was, you know, if he went into someone's house, and they said, Well, every time I walk over to the kitchen sink, my dog growls at me, then it would be the walking over to the kitchen sink that was the antecedent to the behavior, which was the growl. So when you listen to that segment, and we discuss antecedent, that would be what we were talking about. Yeah, hopefully that gives a little bit more context.
Libby 3:00
So a little more about Michael. Michael Shikashio is an internationally sought after keynote speaker and presenter on the topic of aggression at numerous events, conferences, and universities worldwide. He has mentored and presented to 1000s of animal professionals in 12 different countries and has been a guest at every major Dog Training Conference in the US and Mexico. Michael is fully certified through the International Association of Animal Behavior consultants, and is one of fewer than 300 CDBCs worldwide. He is the founder of the aggression in dogs master course and currently teaches trainers and behavior consultants in more than 25 countries how to work with aggression cases, Michael has been a featured guest for numerous media outlets, including the New York Times New York Post Sirius XM Radio real simple magazine, Baltimore Sun, weapon de WTNH, channel eight, Steve Dale's pet world and women's health. He is referred to by countless veterinary professionals, rescue and shelter organizations, and behavior professionals from all over the world for working with aggression cases. So links to Michael's work and all of the organizations that he mentions, and his podcast will all be in the show notes. So please check those out wherever you get your podcasts or on pod to the rescue.com. Without further ado, here's our interview with Michael Shikashio. We hope you enjoy it.
Michael Shikashio Welcome to pod to the rescue. Thank you so much for being on. We're really excited to have you.
Michael 4:44
Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be talking about all the stuff we're gonna be talking about today.
Libby 4:48
Yeah, there's so much yeah. So before we get started, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and how you came to focus on aggression in dogs?
Michael 4:57
Sure. So this is actually the perfect podcasts for this because my I got started in rescue and fostering dogs. And that's what kind of whet my appetite for working with aggression cases and working with dogs with aggression issues. So I did a lot of fostering and rescue work when I first started out, because I always wanted to open a dog business of some kind. And I figured what better way to get experiences, I'm sure many of the listeners know is to foster some dogs in your home. And that's the fastest one of the fastest way to really learn how to work with and handle dogs than to happen live with you. So as many of the foster parents, I'm sure listening know that you start to get more of the difficult dogs as you become known as experienced foster home. And then they send you more maybe next thing, you know, yeah. And then we're like eight or 10 foster dogs at a time and you learn how to really manage multiple groups of dogs and avoid issues. So So yeah, I started learning about, I want to learn more about behavior and training to really learn the right way to help these dogs. So that kind of segwayed into learning how to train dogs basic issues, all the way up to what I do now is just strictly working with aggression cases. And that's been my journey, I kind of did a lot of just general training early on, and then moved into just taking aggression cases. And now all I do is kind of just teach other trainers how to work with aggression cases. And I've been focusing on that for the last few years exclusively. So it's been been a fun journey, for sure.
Libby 6:23
That's great. I kind of have a similar fostering arc, because I had my first Foster was a little fearful. And then Emily started asking me to like walk the fearful dogs, and then they gave me, Daisy, my current dog is all sorts of challenging, but it's, it's kind of a crash course. Right?
Michael 6:47
Yeah. That's like how most of us get started as dog trainers, right? We get like our first problem, you know, quote, unquote, problem, dog. And then yeah, you get into behavior training. Yeah, that's fun way to learn.
Libby 7:01
So before we get much further, can you define aggression in dogs for our listeners?
Michael 7:09
So this is a really important question as to what is aggression? What is what does it mean, and it's important to make that distinction. Aggression is behavior. So we don't want to label that as a personality trait for a dog. Because it creates lots of issues when you start to say a dog is aggressive. Now, aggressive dog is the name of my website, that's the people search for that when they're talking about aggression in dogs, but it's really important. Aggression is behavior used to increase distance from a stimulus. That's the very basic definition of it, the dog is feeling threatened or is fearful of a particular thing in the environment. And they just want it to get further away, they want it to go away because they're having issues with it. And aggressive behavior usually accomplishes that task of barking, lunging, growling, stalling, snapping, all the way up to biting might be used to increase distance from a stimulus. And that's the function of aggression. And if you look at it, that that's the most simplest form, then we don't have to give the dog a personality trait or say it's this dog's fault or the homeowners fault. It's just behavior. There's something in the environment that's setting that behavior in motion. That's really the easiest way to look at it, it's the easiest way to understand it as well, once you make it easy to understand is a lot. Also easier to treat that issue.
Emily 8:24
I think that's so important for rescuers and shelter workers to know, because we always hear like, Oh, we don't take aggressive dogs, like when we ask our fellow rescue friends, like, can you take this dog or that dog, they're like, well, as long as it doesn't have aggression. And then on our applications, when we're processing applications for dog, a deal breaker is always aggression. And so it seems like understanding aggression, and that it's a behavior in a repertoire of behaviors, and not some abnormal thing is important for dog people to know.
Michael 8:58
Yeah, because it's so contextual, you know, behaviors contextual happens in a certain, you know, fancy terms and antecedent arrangement, it's happening. It doesn't happen all the time. And so, you know, to answer just that just just are to use that as one criteria, you know, is the dog aggressive? is unfortunately unfair to the dog, because most of the time, it's very understandable. You know, every mammal, every species uses aggression, for self preservation, including humans. And so if I said, you know, Emily's aggressive Oh, no, you know, I'm not gonna be friends with her. That's that's basically what what live well, maybe it's because some guy cut you off on the stream, flip to the bird. And you responded with the same thing and oh my gosh, she's so aggressive, but that's totally unfair. And the same thing can happen with dogs. Somebody, you know, reaching into the dog food ball while they're eating, which I don't recommend that the dog responds to the growl or something and suddenly that dog labels aggressive and then completely unfair to that dog for deciding whether an adoption prospect or not based on just that one instance. And so there's other variables. I think, of course that should be assessed for when you're looking at is installed and adoption candidate or not.
Libby 10:07
Yeah, that's so important. Are there just briefly, what are some of the other variables that you look for? If we're, if we're speaking directly here to shelters and rescues?
Michael 10:16
Yeah. So there's quite a few. You know, I think one of the things that is, is cause for concern, but also useful tool is the bite the level of biting that happens. So a lot of shelters will use, like in Dr. Yun bonfires bite scale, which is a very useful tool to assess the level of damage inflicted, but that's what it is it assesses the level of damage, it doesn't assess other factors. And so that's a good first step. So if I've got a dog, and that that scale goes from levels one to six, so there's there's different bite levels, six being depth to the victim. If I got a level six biter, that's clear cut, like we're not going to adopt out dogs and killing people. And then at the other end of the rating scale, there's a level one, which is shouldn't air snap with no contact, really straightforward. Okay, we could probably work with this dog, it's not inherently dangerous, maybe it's 20 Level One Bites. And so it's just snapping at people, it's exhibiting really great inhibition, very clear cut, probably a good chance for adoption prospecting, because it's not doing any damage, just just when it hits those gray areas, levels three and four, biting sort of in the middle of the scale I've seen where some some organizations where that's their sole criteria for determining if the dog is gonna be adopted or not. And that is also terribly unfair, because it doesn't assess all the other factors. And here's the kicker is that you could ask, I can get 100 behavior professionals and show them pictures of a level three and level four bites, you know, you'll you'll get different responses. But sometimes Apple say that's a level three, and the other half will say that's a level four, injury. And that could be the differentiator between adoption prospects. Level four, we don't adopt that level three, we adopt out and are potentially adopt that, depending on the other circumstances, but again, terribly unfair. So the other factors to look for are things like provocation. So if I have a dog that I'm reaching into its food bowl, and it bites me, that's a high level of provocation. Now, if I have a dog that is laying down in its front yard, and that's somebody's walking by across the street, that dog gets up charges across the street latches on to that person or bites that person. There's no provocation there. Right. So it's, there's, that's a considerable factor, because sometimes it depends on what that person is doing or what the victim was doing in that case, then you have to look at so many other things like as was an underlying health issue that was caused as a dog in pain? Or does did a very reasonably because the dog was a pain is there's something that's very obvious why the dog? Is there a wide range of antecedents, so is it a dog biting men, women, children, other dogs, kids on bikes and things like that, that's a more difficult case, then the dog bites when people reach into its food bowl. So you know, the range of antecedent support, then you can look at other things like the potential for risk. So if you've got 150 pound Connie Corso, kind of level two or level three fighter that's going to carry a little bit more risk than let's say, a Pomeranian at a level, same level of biting. So you look at that factor. So then you look at the environment, can the person adopting the dog? Or where's the dog going to manage the environment? Well, are they going to be able to work on a shoe and keep people safe? or manage that particular issue? So there's so many, there's just so many variables to like, assess, and look at why it's important to kind of look at that view. And that's why I recommend, whenever I get that call, a lot people will say, you know, Mike, can you come assess this dog? Or can we hire you to assess this? Don't we want to know, if it's it, I'll say, well, I could come the shelter and look at the dog. But that's not gonna give me much information, what's gonna give me more information, if I can talk to the shelter staff that interact with the dog, previous adopters, anybody who's interacting with dog, previous owners that may have information about any kind of aggression, then I'm going to be able to have a much more robust picture that's gonna allow me, you know, it's gonna give me data on saying, okay, yes, this is a potential because we looked at all those variables, the bite level, the provocation, the potential management, age of the dog, the breed of the dog, the size of the dog, all those things that we can measure. Now, you're going to be able to have a much more educated and objective decision making process. So lots of variables. I hope I kind of covered that the best I could.
Emily 14:34
So for someone bringing home a new dog that had no sign of aggression in the shelter and came home with like a good behavior report, what would you recommend for them in order to set them up for success and try to avoid some pitfalls? You talked about reaching into the food bowl? What would be other things that you would recommend?
Michael 14:53
Yeah, I think the number one thing, anybody who's getting a dog, whether it's an a foster or a a In the option or any context of getting a dog is to learn how to read body language to learn how to communicate with the dog, because that's going to tell you what the dog's feeling it's going to tell you if the dogs uncomfortable with a particular situation, because you can have 1000 point checklist of all the things you should do to avoid dog aggression, or to prevent it. And yes, there's some useful things that we could put, which we can discuss in a minute. But body language that's going to tell you a lot about how the dog is feeling. And if we can start to recognize those subtle signals, then we know okay, oh, this dogs may be uncomfortable with me going into football, or something more quirky, like, you know, walking over to the kitchen sink, because the dogs had a negative interaction with somebody else spraying the spray or something weird like that. And so I can't say to every adopter, don't go into your kitchen sink. But I can't say if you happen to notice your dog licking or yawning are running away when you approach that kitchen sink, that's telling you something. So that's something you're going to know for that individual dog, it could be a problem. So we'll work on that. Let's let's listen to the dog dogs telling you loud and clear what it's uncomfortable with. So, by far, you know, just learning to read the dogs. Is this goes such a long way.
Emily 16:15
Wow, that's awesome. I wish more shelters and rescues had body language education as part of their adoption process.
Michael 16:23
Yes, yeah. It, it would be very, very helpful. But in the right information to unfortunately sometimes. Yeah, you know, information about what the dog is doing is can be a little bit misguided in terms of, you know, some of the signals. But yeah,
Emily 16:38
we've been recommending the Lily Chin doggy language book, to all our listeners. Yes.
Michael 16:44
Yes, Lily stuff is great.
Libby 16:46
I also just have to give a plug because I'm going through, right, I'm going through my fear free certification right now. And their program is incredible. If you're a trainer or a shelter or a rescue, like, their resources are incredible. So
Michael 17:01
second, second, shout out to them, Marty and Marty and Mikel Becker. Good friends and colleagues, they put out some amazing stuff and the rest of the fair free team as well. So kudos to them for really helping to educate the masses.
Libby 17:15
Those are some really good starting points. Understanding body language is kind of the most important thing to prevent aggression. When you bring a dog into your home. What are some common ways that we create dog aggression? We were really looking forward to talking to you about this after we saw a little infographic you posted. So we'd love to go over these.
Michael 17:37
Yeah. So you know, I think from my foster shelter, kind of rescue perspective, you know, one of the things that sort of in the broader perspective is making sure we've given the dog enough time to acclimate to the environment, and then touch on some of those points. So if you get a dog, for instance, and we're, we're really motivated to get that dog adopting or fostering it, we're in a shelter or rescue situation. Sometimes we're overzealous, so we try to push things quickly. So let's say we get a dog that's somewhat showing some signs of shyness or fearfulness around other dogs or something. And in the name of socialization, I'm putting big air quotes up there, socialization, we try to socialize them to help them and they're new to the foster home or their organization or something like that, that's stressful enough as well. Any kind of change in environment can be stressful for anybody, any dog or human right. And so, you know, so I sometimes see let's go to the dog park, we'll put you in the middle of a dog park with a bunch of other dogs running around. Sometimes you get away with it, but a lot of times that can backfire, because it's just too overwhelming. For the dog, I use the analogy of the bar, you know, it's like picking a dog to a nightclub or to a bar. And sometimes the dog will have a good time. But other times, bad things can happen. And those dog parks, you know, so far fights and unwelcome advances and humping. And, you know, diseases and stuff, there's bad things that can happen dog barks. So just like a nightclub or a bar, so we got to be careful about those. So I never recommend taking a shy or fearful dog to a dog park or something like that. Another one is, you know, social again, in the attempt to socialize the dog, we bring the dog up to things, whether it's a person or another dog, or garbage can or wherever it is on leash. And we're kind of pulling the dog away to coax them to try to get them air quotes used to that particular thing, which is kind of forcing the dog into a situation they don't want but then they get trapped there because the leash is restricted. So we're holding the leash a little tighter. And again, the dogs maybe not barking, lunging, or showing them to avoid sounds of aggression. So we're like, okay, maybe they'll get used to it. The book just socialization, but when, at the same time we might be what's called flooding that dog it's putting them in an overwhelming situation and now they can't get away with it. If you do that enough times, some dogs will resort to aggression, because that's what ends up working with them. Because we've we've removed their flight option artificially by using the leash, or restricting their flight option, and what are you left with? One of the other apps can be the fight option, which they decide, okay, I guess the only way for me to get away from this dog is to use my teeth are some other aggressive behavior, that usually works, because someone's going to pull me away. Next thing, you know, we've reinforced that behavior, we've actually caused an aggressive response, which the dogs can use, again, in the future, to get itself out of a scary situation. So that's another one. The other other common ones are the, the whole, I forgot what was on my list for that thing. But one of the ones that's right at the top of my mind that I've seen happen, and actually got great videos of this in so many ways, that's the beauty of social media, you see tons of this happening.
Maybe not in a good way, but it's, it's, you know, hand feeding. So people will use their hands to 10 feet a tree to dog. And they attempt to get them used to that person. So let's say you have that shy or fearful Foster, and we get our friends over or something, and help us try to get this dog used to people. We give them treats, just give him some treats, then he'll like you, and maybe it'll get over. But again, it works for some dogs. But with some dogs, we are drawing them past their critical distance where they see that food, it's like ooh, cookie, or hot dog or whatever. The they go over to that, yeah, they go over to the skip the treats. And they they that draws them into this critical disk pass what's called the critical distance, it's the distance at which they feel threatened. And because, you know, it's just it's, it's enticing to the dog to see that treat, and then they get stuck there and they look up and they're like bellboy in trouble here. And then they end up resorting to aggression to get themselves out of that space. Let's The analogy I use all the times pile of $100 bills in one hand, and I've got a gun to the other, come get the come get the bundle of $100 bills, like Google money, but then I've got a gun pointed at you. On the other hand, you're going to be very conflicted about that. So so it's always better. If you're gonna do that, if the dog is not rolling over threshold, barking lunge or growling. And the person can be in the vicinity, they can toss treats to the dog efforts, toss the treats slightly behind the dog, and helps the dog increase distance without having to figure out how to do it on its own. If they're interested, they'll come back this toss the treat again. And over time, you'll see that body language that's your barometer to measure how the dogs feeling, you'll see that body language start to change to where they might be more receptive to when and feeding is okay for them. But the way to tell is body language.
Emily 22:39
I love that you had a post on social media over the weekend with a dog that was barking and lunging, and you just threw food. And you know, a lot of people would feel like Why were you throwing food at a dog that was barking and lunging. But it's to change the way they feel. And you were throwing it behind so they got that relief of pressure.
Michael 22:59
Yes, yeah, the one of the biggest misconception is that giving food or comforting a dog that's fearful, will reinforce the fear. But that's the issue is that it's an emotional response, we cannot reinforce emotional responses, the same way we can reinforce behavior. So I give a cookie to a dog that sits or jumps up on me, they're going to remember, okay, I got a cookie for sitting or jumping up on the person. That's why a lot of dogs do start getting worse, because people are petting them as they're jumping up. That's behavior that we can end up reinforcing. But it's not driven by fear, barking and lunging at somebody coming in the yard. That motivation is driven by fear that underlying emotional response, you can't reinforce that you can't reinforce the fear issue. So it's the same as people that if you're afraid of something that said, it's okay, or I gave you some money, or I did anything that's going to comfort you, it's not going to make you more fearful of that particular situation. So if you address the fear, then you address the behavior because if the dog changes from I'm scared of this person to who kind of like this person, because they're giving me treats and they're not doing anything threatening to me, you'll see the fear go away. And then the reason for the behavior goes away. So barking and lunging knowingly no longer needs to happen because the dogs actually okay with the person now so the barking logic goes away. And now it's much more affiliative happy approaching. And that's why it's okay to toss treats a dog like that. The one caveat is this small, small percentage of dogs that are somewhat having a good time doing that behavior. And those are breed specific behaviors like like a livestock Guardian dog, potentially protecting the property. Yeah, that's the difference. Yes, we might inadvertently reinforce that behavior because it's not driven by fear, or some underlying underlying emotional response like that. So there's a distinction. I always like to mention that because I don't want people also reinforcing like the German shepherd for like barking, lunging at some ants approaching them lets you know that they feel as a threat to their owner. They're just doing what a good German shepherd would do. So it's a different approach. They're those we're going to work more on teaching the dog what to do instead. But vast majority of the time, toxic treats that a dog that's that's barking, out of fear is not going to to hurt anything, it's only going to make things better in most cases.
Libby 25:23
I'm so glad you brought that up, because that was going to be my next question, because I have an Australian cattle dog. So if she's barking and lunging at a bike, it's not because she's afraid of it. She's just super excited. There's something fast moving in her environment. So yeah, like you said that, in those cases, you teach the dog what to do instead, like a replacement behavior?
Michael 25:47
Yeah, yeah. And that's the important distinction. Sometimes we need a professional step in to help the client to assess really what's going on. And sometimes there's a mixture, sometimes a dog could be a little bit fearful, but also displaying breed specific behaviors. So that's why it's important to to work with a professional that can help create the appropriate behavior plan. But yes, there are some dogs that they're going to do things that that particular breed does, the Border Collie chasing the children around in the backyard would reasonably say that's pretty normal for that particular breed.
Emily 26:20
And back to that graphic, the infographic about ways to create aggression, you would not recommend punishing a dog that was barking, and lunging at a stranger visiting the house.
Michael 26:32
Exactly. So any any aggression, aggressive response that's motivated by those those things, fear, anxiety, stress, frustration, those, if we start to add in punishers, or something that is, the dog doesn't like, what we're doing is just adding a negative to a negative situation. The example I use a lot is the, like an invisible fence. Right. So it works by punishments in the behavioral sense. So most clean behavioral terms, it's a positive punishment dog runs the fence line, and gets either the beat or the actual shock from the Invisible Fence collar. And, and, and that's the thing about Invisible Fence collars, they work beautifully, because there's really no human intervention, it's it's, the timing is actually really great. That's why they work so well. In so many cases, it's just the association that we can, unfortunately, that comes along for the ride. So let's say the mailman comes by every day, the dogs typically fine with everybody excited to see the mailman goes charging to the fence line to go say hello. And then they get the beep, beep, when condition to shock, by the way, will have the same punishing characteristics as the actual shock, because it's so classically conditioned to it. But the rest of the Fenceline gets the people the shock next, you know. So it's like, Oh, that wasn't so great. So, okay, all right. So man goes away, the mailman comes again, the next day, same thing, the dog runs through the fence line and get that beep in that for that shock. So then the dog starts this, potentially carry this association, wait a second, every time this, I should use the appropriate term postal employee comes by and they are they show up, I might get shocked. So there's that negative association being created. And enough times doing that, pretty soon that I was like, You know what, I've had enough of this postal carrier, I'm going to let them know next time. And then sometimes they break through that fence line to go and actually use aggression to make that postal carrier go away. So punishing punishment. And that's a very clean example like that, that is a spot as clean as you can get. It can get even muddy or sometimes if the punishment is not always consistent, so that the definition of that is anxiety, creating anxiety and dog, not knowing when the next ball is going to drop. That is the definition side. It's not sure what's the outcome of what's going to happen next that can create further issues. So you can see where there's a lot of issues with punishment. And I will be fair, it's not that happens in every case. You know, there's plenty of times that punishment does work, but we run the risk of the potential side effects so so when there's other methods that we can use that don't carry the same side effects, why not start with those first and incorporate those?
Emily 29:28
Oh my god, I love that. I love that so much. You know, there's so many rescuers and shelters out there that do still like slap prawn collars on their dogs. And you see it on on social media all the time. And I think they just don't know. I mean, they're all in the business because they love dogs and they want to do the best by dogs. And so I think this conversation is so important. I didn't know this a decade ago. So you know, the more we can get this information out to all these dog loving people that if you really want to set your dog up for success, it's best to start with positive means,
Michael 30:03
yes, yeah, it's, again, because it's not, you know, I'm not the type that just comes out attacking anybody's tools or anything like that, because they, they they work, they, you know, I used to use those tools, I have what they call as it is known as a crossover trainer. So I understand the use of those tools and how they work. So it's not that they don't work, it's just that they, for me carry a higher risk of potential side effects, or what they would call Fallout than if you were to go with a positive reinforcement strategy. So why not start with the positive reinforcement, try to think that has the least amount of potential side effects. So that's, it's gone, it's very straightforward for me at this point in my life, why would approach using positive methods?
Emily 30:47
I totally agree with that. And also rescue dog shelter dogs, they're in such a, you know, stressed out state just from the upheaval in their lives, that you're already stacking the deck against them.
Michael 30:59
Yeah, one of the things I hear a lot is we don't you don't, we don't have time, or we don't have the resources, or this is a last resort. So, you know, using an E collar or something would be appropriate for this case. And, you know, I understand that I understand that, again, coming from a rescue background, that there are limited resources, sometimes there is limited time. But there's always that option, there's always other options that we can do for that dog. And most of the time, when we're reaching for those quick fix strategies, you're going to see some fallout because of what you just mentioned, there, Emily is that the, they're already in a stressful situation, their environment is changed, they're being shifted around, we've got some, you know, people trying to help the dog. And so we start using something we might look at as a quick fix. That's going to look good on paper. Because you can take an aversive tool, I can take an E collar, I can stop a behavior, I can suppress a behavior, that's gonna look really good, right? It's gonna be like, Wow, it's almost like made for TV like, okay, yeah, the dog now stopped barking. Sure I get, I get a dog's almost stopped doing anything using an aversive enough stimulus. Looks good on paper. But what happens when that dog goes to the new home, or the adopter home, were suppressed the behavior great, it's good, but doesn't mean we've changed the underlying reason for that behavior in the first place. If we don't address the underlying reason, whether it's pain, fear, anxiety, stress, you don't address the behavior. So once that new owners either stopped using the caller doesn't know how to use it. Next, you know, the aggression comes roaring back, often much worse, because we suppress some of the signals we want to keep in the first place. And so I think it's a two part issues that, yes, we need to work with what resources we have. But also, it's an educational issue, we have to educate that sometimes the positive methods are the most appropriate, but also can be faster than some of these quick fixes. Because what's going to happen is, when done, right, you can still enact those behavior change, but we're going to change the underlying reasons. So the fear and anxiety stress, but most importantly, for these dogs and shelter and rescue, we're adding in positives, we're, we're negating the stress and the frustration and things that can happen in those environmental changes, by using positive methods, because the dog stays gonna be great if all of his good things happening tree topping training, and all of this enrichment and good things happening, you are addressing the root cause of the problem there by doing that. So I argue that positive training is actually a faster fix than aversive methods, even though adverse events can look good on paper at first. So
Libby 33:49
that's, that's just I love that point so much, you're not just dealing with an unwanted behavior, you're also adding enrichment to the dog's life that is going to help relieve the stress that is contributing to those unwanted behaviors.
Michael 34:05
Absolutely, I mean, if you look at just how much stress can play a role, if you look at like some of the studies that have been done on just like resource guarding, for instance, the prevalence and resource guarding if you do nothing, nothing except just take the dog from the shelter environments, and you put them into a home environment, the resource guarding behaviors decrease the frequency, that's with zero training, no training, no intervention, or just to change an environment. So you can see how much stress can play a role in some behaviors, especially aggressive responses.
Emily 34:36
That's amazing. So similar to it so similar to us. I mean, when we're stressed out at the end of the day, you know, we're more likely to snap at our partner. If we've had a really stressful day or you know, we're in the middle of some big test or project, but if we're sitting on the beach, then we're pretty relaxed, like hey, yeah, sure. I'm totally excited to have a conversation with you now, but yeah, so I I think we do Just need to understand that their responses are so similar to ours when they're under stress.
Michael 35:05
Yeah. And here's here's my shout out to all the Fosters anybody in the rescue world hears that you're you're doing behavior change strategy, whether you like it or not, you get that dog out of a stressful environment, you bring them to home. And you if you do nothing, if you just sit there and watch the dog do nothing, you're already doing a service for that dog. They're in a home environment in a much less stressful situation. So there's, there's really no urgency or training pressure that needs to happen in that first couple of weeks even just let the dog settle in, let them say, this place is pretty cool. No pressure on me, it's so much less stressful. And I'm sure many of the force was giving a lot of extra stuff treats and soft dog beds and all of that stuff. But there's no need for a lot of training pressure in most cases. In terms of that regard. Of course, you know, little things like house training issues are not choosing your furniture. But you know, there's no need to put all of the significant pressure on the dogs.
Emily 36:02
Oh, my God, I love that so much the value of doing nothing, just letting them come in and decompress. Exactly. We had a great episode with Dr. McConnell about decompression. Yeah, yeah. And yeah, I mean, it really is just let them come in. Don't put any pressure on them. And let them relax.
Michael 36:19
Yes, yeah. Anything Dr. McConnell says is, it's worth gold, because it's, it's so true. You know, no one knows. Much better than ours. So
Libby 36:30
you briefly mentioned resource guarding? Can you talk about how we inadvertently create resource guarding when we're trying to help our dogs?
Michael 36:39
Yeah, so if if anything can be taken away from this episode, and spread out to the masses, is just stop trying to do all these things to get the dog use to it, right. So that if, if we just left dogs alone, while they're eating or have a toy, or bone or something that they would normally guard, you don't, you won't create the issue in the first place. And sometimes even if the dog has a pre existing resource guarding issue, let's say they have a history of biting the assessor hat or something like that, which I again, don't recommend poking at dogs when they're eating in any facet, we don't need to do that. Just leave them alone while they're eating. And if you do that the dogs are they caught my last home, people were poking prior to me messing around me my food business home, nobody's messing with me. So I can trust these people. So there's no need to guard. So you don't even treat the issue sometimes and it goes away. So one of the worst things we can do. And I see this advice all the time is to do things in the name of getting the doggies to stick your hand in the food ball while they're eating. pet them while they're eating, pick up the food ball and put it down. So they know you own the food or, you know, you do all these these really, that the reasoning behind these things is so it's maddening when you think about it, because all we're doing is aggravating the crap out of our dogs by doing that, right. So it's, it's, if you have an existing issue, there's ways to treat it right? We can we can work on dogs that do have resource guarding issues. But a lot of times we don't have to do anything. And a lot of times, we don't have to do much to avoid resources, that you can teach it by irritating the dog while they're eating. Or if they have a bone, or for not recognizing that it's this particular thing, the dog likes it. So let's not try to take it away. We can do things so that they voluntarily start to trade or give you things or if we want to have preventative maintenance. Or if you have small children in the home, things like that there's, there's things we can do to ensure things don't become a problem, or treat things if there is a crowd. But first and foremost, let's leave them alone, while they have a resource. And that's the that's the best thing to do for dogs to avoid this really epic problem with resource guarding issues that I'm seeing. It's just it's getting much worse, unfortunately, seeing that all of my students, trainers and teachers seeing that higher prevalence, the resource guarding issues, especially after pandemic times. Among other things that are we're seeing, of course, issues with separation, anxiety issues, and all those other things from the pandemic. So, yeah, hopefully, hopefully, people start to not worry so much about, you know, training their dog to get used to things, let's just leave them alone, rather, eating or having resource. Give them a safe space to do that.
Emily 39:23
So we've been chatting for 45 minutes, and I realized that we haven't covered one big concept, which is dominance. You haven't mentioned that once. And I feel like that is a myth that we should chat about before we let you go.
Michael 39:40
Yeah, yeah. So the big D word. Yeah, that's the sole controversial like it, especially in dog training circles. So, you know, dominance is a thing. It's an ecological concept that pretty much to sum it down into one line is priority access to a resource so animals do use dominance with each other. That being said, that's all it is. It's not some hierarchy where you have to be alpha, that whole Alpha construct has been completely debunked many, many times. So we don't need to really use that word dominance anymore, we don't need to apply it because it's the problem with labels in constructs is that they get applied massively at a mass scale. So now everything's related to dominance. And that's what happened in in dog training behavior world in the 90s. And the 2000s, early 2000s. So all this everything's dominance, and always being dominant, so we have to be more dominant. And that creates so many issues for so many dogs, like, oh, no, the dogs, you know, laying on the couch there. So now I can't let that happen. Dogs being dominant, or sleeping on my bed, dogs gonna dominate the world that they're sleeping on a bed. It's such, it's such nonsense when you think about it, in the grand scheme of things. So yeah, it's a, it's a construct, I hope that goes away, I think it's, it's a useful term for a very small subset of people that really understand what dance is and talking about it from an ecological concept. But there's, there's really no need to apply it, let's just look at behavior. Let's look at what the dog is doing and stop worrying about it. The dogs being dominance, or alpha stubborn, or just, you know, whatever else people want to call it, we look at what the behavior actually is, that's all we need to know, let's say what's what do we want our dogs to do instead, rather than saying, Oh, I've got to be more dominant. It's, it's just, and that's not to go off on a tangent. But the, that's like, when you think about it's like, when we're treating behavior issues, you know, the a lot of schools of thought, let's, let's treat everything but the actual behavior itself. So dogs need more exercise, the dogs need more walks, structured walks, or pack walks, or the dogs need you to be more dominant. And then they will stop snapping at me when I pet them on their rear end or their hip or something. And that whole behavior is motivated, let's say let's we use that, for example. The dog is growling at people when they cut its leg or tip, dogs being dominance. And that's what it's attributed to. So now you got to punish the dog, or B, put the dog in its place, or some alpha, roll the dog or do all these awful things, when hasn't been recognized that whole reason for the behavior, the dogs in pain, don't have hip dysplasia or torn ACL. But the dogs being dominant. And so nobody ever treats the torn ACL or attributed to dominance. And it's just this vicious cycle, oh, my gosh, he grew up not gonna take him by the neck and pin him down or withhold his meals or kick him off the bed or all of these things that are not actually addressing the actual behavior. So rather than saying, Okay, I've got to be the trigger for this behavior is when I go reach to pet him. And the reason for the behaviors because he's in pain. And so we never actually go to addressing Okay, let's, first of all address the pain issue. And let's teach the dog that it's okay when people pet because it's going to predict something good for the dog is going to happen. So, yeah, I hope that it continues. You know, I've seen some wonderful changes in the behavior world where people are starting to recognize it's actually a treat the behavior treat, like recognize why the dogs doing these things in the first place. And making sure that the true reasons for why the dog is doing in the first place without attributing to some sort of a hierarchy or dominance concept.
Emily 43:21
And I've one other question along that line of, you know, that positive reinforcement works for all breeds the concept of some breeds need a heavier hand, and you can throw treats at a Pomeranian but if you're dealing with a Connie Corso, then you need a heavier hand, and I've noticed that you work with all breeds, in the same way.
Michael 43:42
Yeah, yeah, that's another misconception too, I think. You know, I think part of it is like this, sort of just trying to be like, I don't know the word, I'm looking for it. But there's like this macho ism to it, like when you see a lot of, I see that comment a lot from male trainers as well, where they, it's like, you got to have a heavy hand, it's like, almost like, I gotta be like, one off and cool. It's stronger than the dog. But it's, you know, it's such a again, another misconception because if I carried that same concept over into, let's just, let's not talk about dogs, it's talking about other species. You know, it's, that's that Take That tuna that wants to have a heavy hand, but let's put them in a zoo with, you know, 600 pound gorilla or a lion. And let's see how heavy handed they can be with those animals, where they're using strictly positive reinforcement, to get the animal to come up and, you know, stick a leg out of a cage for a blood draw, right to all train through positive reinforcement, you think I'm gonna throw a collar on that dog of that line and just drag it over the cage, you know? So, it's the same with dogs, you know, it doesn't matter the size of the dog. We've got to just use our good training skills with positive reinforcement and cooperative, be cooperative with the dog. So I rather actually be cooperative with a dog that could waste you know, 50 pounds more than me in some cases, and could easily do much more damage, I would much rather have a cooperative conversation with that dog than a forceful one. So why risk? It's got it kind of when you think about it makes really this like, it's odd argument, okay, I'm gonna be more heavy handed with the dogs that could literally bite my arm off versus the little tiny Chihuahua that I'm going to be, you know, less heavy handed with but can't bite my face off. So, yeah, yeah, we got to see that mythical way to dogs, dogs, whether it's a, you know, five pound dog or 150 pound dog is the treatment plants got the same, but, of course, the subtle differences in how high you give the treat, you know, the little differences in equipment, but that that's that that
Libby 45:50
is there before we let you go, is there anything else you think the rescue and shelter community needs to know about aggression in dogs that we didn't cover?
Michael 45:59
Know where to look for help. So I know that rescues sometimes have depending especially on where they are located might have limited resources. But the nice thing about the whole pandemic is that people have learned to learn and to teach online. So the resources are out there for really getting the best help for the dogs in your program that might have aggression issues, because that's where it starts. Because, unfortunately, the wild west with dog training and behavior, and you might end up with something that can make dogs much worse if you're not careful. So nowhere to look, there's great resources out there, like your podcasts, but also, you know, IWC, so I abc.org for good behavior consultants and CCPD T. There's, there's, of course, the veterinary behaviors. So da CVB. There's lots of great resources out there, too, that are science based, that give give give really good information. That's not based in some sort of folklore and myth myths that we want to avoid. So nowhere to look, but those know that those resources out there and know that you're not alone, the rescue world, as being from there can be a bit lonely or feel a little bit. You know, just like any other dog training, conversation can have their own conversations that feel a little bit icky or competitive sometimes, but I know that you're not alone in the rest of it. There's there's help out there. And there's people willing to help with training and behavior. So we're there for you.
Libby 47:33
Awesome, and where can people find you online?
Michael 47:36
Yeah, so everything I do is through aggressivedog.com. I've got, actually, depending on when this episode airs, but I've got a complete website revamp happening right now, where I'm including a lot more resources for people that are in the pet owner, just pet owners, rescues veterinarians. So it's going to that's going to have a full area for articles and videos. I've got a lot of other professionals, a lot of my students writing articles and producing video content for me now. So as a general resources, I really want it to be the go to resource for people having issues with aggression, whether it's a rescue shelter or a pet owner. So that's going to be launched that's through aggressive dog.com. And it's got all the information. I've got courses, webinars, conference information, their podcast information there. And they can they can find me that by the end of the dog podcasts that's available. couple seasons in now. So so that's where I am. Yeah.
Emily 48:34
Well, this was wonderful. It's such an honor to have you on our podcast.
Libby 48:37
Yeah. Thank you so much. I learned a ton and I know our listeners will too.
Michael 48:41
My pleasure. Thanks for having me.
Libby 48:46
Thanks for tuning in. If you liked this episode, don't forget to rate and review. It helps other folks like you find the show. To find out more about our programming and adoptable rescue dogs, you can visit summit dog rescue.org thanks to Mike pesci for the original music and to Alex Lee Ammons and for the love media for graphics production and editing. See you soon on pod to the rescue.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Welcome to pod to the rescue.
Libby 0:11
Rescuing the dog is just the first step. We're here to help with everything that comes next.
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to pod that the rescue. I'm Libby.
Emily 0:23
And I'm Emily.
Libby 0:25
And we are so excited to bring you this first episode of season two, we interviewed Michael Shikashio who is a world renowned expert on dog aggression. And this conversation was so exciting. There were so many gems in there, and I am still just gobsmacked by all the knowledge he just dropped.
Emily 0:49
I am so overwhelmed that he took the time and so grateful that he took the time to speak with us, the gems that we got out of this conversation, I think are so useful to anyone who works in a shelter or Foster's dogs, or has newly adopted a dog over the pandemic. It's really, it was a wonderful conversation. And so full of information, I'm still kind of mulling over in my mind all the topics that we hit in less than an hour.
Libby 1:20
Absolutely. And he offers so many great resources. So if you work with dogs in any capacity, please listen all the way through this episode. It's fantastic.
Emily 1:32
We talked about some myth busting, which I think is so important in order to set our dogs up for success and just ways that we can work with our dogs so that they don't feel the need to display aggressive behavior.
Libby 1:44
Yeah, and I think that this piece of really understanding aggressive behavior better is so important for anyone in the rescue and shelter community.
Emily 1:57
It's true, we try to label a dog as this one's aggressive. That one's not aggressive. But in reality, aggression is just a behavior that that all of us display. And so understanding it and how to work with it and how to avoid it and how not to create it is going to really help so many people in the dog world.
Libby 2:18
One thing that we discussed, but didn't define that we wanted to define for you listeners real quick is the term antecedent. Antecedent refers to the conditions or factors that lead to a behavior. So it's what occurred right before the behavior happened.
Emily 2:34
And one example Michael gave was, you know, if he went into someone's house, and they said, Well, every time I walk over to the kitchen sink, my dog growls at me, then it would be the walking over to the kitchen sink that was the antecedent to the behavior, which was the growl. So when you listen to that segment, and we discuss antecedent, that would be what we were talking about. Yeah, hopefully that gives a little bit more context.
Libby 3:00
So a little more about Michael. Michael Shikashio is an internationally sought after keynote speaker and presenter on the topic of aggression at numerous events, conferences, and universities worldwide. He has mentored and presented to 1000s of animal professionals in 12 different countries and has been a guest at every major Dog Training Conference in the US and Mexico. Michael is fully certified through the International Association of Animal Behavior consultants, and is one of fewer than 300 CDBCs worldwide. He is the founder of the aggression in dogs master course and currently teaches trainers and behavior consultants in more than 25 countries how to work with aggression cases, Michael has been a featured guest for numerous media outlets, including the New York Times New York Post Sirius XM Radio real simple magazine, Baltimore Sun, weapon de WTNH, channel eight, Steve Dale's pet world and women's health. He is referred to by countless veterinary professionals, rescue and shelter organizations, and behavior professionals from all over the world for working with aggression cases. So links to Michael's work and all of the organizations that he mentions, and his podcast will all be in the show notes. So please check those out wherever you get your podcasts or on pod to the rescue.com. Without further ado, here's our interview with Michael Shikashio. We hope you enjoy it.
Michael Shikashio Welcome to pod to the rescue. Thank you so much for being on. We're really excited to have you.
Michael 4:44
Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be talking about all the stuff we're gonna be talking about today.
Libby 4:48
Yeah, there's so much yeah. So before we get started, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and how you came to focus on aggression in dogs?
Michael 4:57
Sure. So this is actually the perfect podcasts for this because my I got started in rescue and fostering dogs. And that's what kind of whet my appetite for working with aggression cases and working with dogs with aggression issues. So I did a lot of fostering and rescue work when I first started out, because I always wanted to open a dog business of some kind. And I figured what better way to get experiences, I'm sure many of the listeners know is to foster some dogs in your home. And that's the fastest one of the fastest way to really learn how to work with and handle dogs than to happen live with you. So as many of the foster parents, I'm sure listening know that you start to get more of the difficult dogs as you become known as experienced foster home. And then they send you more maybe next thing, you know, yeah. And then we're like eight or 10 foster dogs at a time and you learn how to really manage multiple groups of dogs and avoid issues. So So yeah, I started learning about, I want to learn more about behavior and training to really learn the right way to help these dogs. So that kind of segwayed into learning how to train dogs basic issues, all the way up to what I do now is just strictly working with aggression cases. And that's been my journey, I kind of did a lot of just general training early on, and then moved into just taking aggression cases. And now all I do is kind of just teach other trainers how to work with aggression cases. And I've been focusing on that for the last few years exclusively. So it's been been a fun journey, for sure.
Libby 6:23
That's great. I kind of have a similar fostering arc, because I had my first Foster was a little fearful. And then Emily started asking me to like walk the fearful dogs, and then they gave me, Daisy, my current dog is all sorts of challenging, but it's, it's kind of a crash course. Right?
Michael 6:47
Yeah. That's like how most of us get started as dog trainers, right? We get like our first problem, you know, quote, unquote, problem, dog. And then yeah, you get into behavior training. Yeah, that's fun way to learn.
Libby 7:01
So before we get much further, can you define aggression in dogs for our listeners?
Michael 7:09
So this is a really important question as to what is aggression? What is what does it mean, and it's important to make that distinction. Aggression is behavior. So we don't want to label that as a personality trait for a dog. Because it creates lots of issues when you start to say a dog is aggressive. Now, aggressive dog is the name of my website, that's the people search for that when they're talking about aggression in dogs, but it's really important. Aggression is behavior used to increase distance from a stimulus. That's the very basic definition of it, the dog is feeling threatened or is fearful of a particular thing in the environment. And they just want it to get further away, they want it to go away because they're having issues with it. And aggressive behavior usually accomplishes that task of barking, lunging, growling, stalling, snapping, all the way up to biting might be used to increase distance from a stimulus. And that's the function of aggression. And if you look at it, that that's the most simplest form, then we don't have to give the dog a personality trait or say it's this dog's fault or the homeowners fault. It's just behavior. There's something in the environment that's setting that behavior in motion. That's really the easiest way to look at it, it's the easiest way to understand it as well, once you make it easy to understand is a lot. Also easier to treat that issue.
Emily 8:24
I think that's so important for rescuers and shelter workers to know, because we always hear like, Oh, we don't take aggressive dogs, like when we ask our fellow rescue friends, like, can you take this dog or that dog, they're like, well, as long as it doesn't have aggression. And then on our applications, when we're processing applications for dog, a deal breaker is always aggression. And so it seems like understanding aggression, and that it's a behavior in a repertoire of behaviors, and not some abnormal thing is important for dog people to know.
Michael 8:58
Yeah, because it's so contextual, you know, behaviors contextual happens in a certain, you know, fancy terms and antecedent arrangement, it's happening. It doesn't happen all the time. And so, you know, to answer just that just just are to use that as one criteria, you know, is the dog aggressive? is unfortunately unfair to the dog, because most of the time, it's very understandable. You know, every mammal, every species uses aggression, for self preservation, including humans. And so if I said, you know, Emily's aggressive Oh, no, you know, I'm not gonna be friends with her. That's that's basically what what live well, maybe it's because some guy cut you off on the stream, flip to the bird. And you responded with the same thing and oh my gosh, she's so aggressive, but that's totally unfair. And the same thing can happen with dogs. Somebody, you know, reaching into the dog food ball while they're eating, which I don't recommend that the dog responds to the growl or something and suddenly that dog labels aggressive and then completely unfair to that dog for deciding whether an adoption prospect or not based on just that one instance. And so there's other variables. I think, of course that should be assessed for when you're looking at is installed and adoption candidate or not.
Libby 10:07
Yeah, that's so important. Are there just briefly, what are some of the other variables that you look for? If we're, if we're speaking directly here to shelters and rescues?
Michael 10:16
Yeah. So there's quite a few. You know, I think one of the things that is, is cause for concern, but also useful tool is the bite the level of biting that happens. So a lot of shelters will use, like in Dr. Yun bonfires bite scale, which is a very useful tool to assess the level of damage inflicted, but that's what it is it assesses the level of damage, it doesn't assess other factors. And so that's a good first step. So if I've got a dog, and that that scale goes from levels one to six, so there's there's different bite levels, six being depth to the victim. If I got a level six biter, that's clear cut, like we're not going to adopt out dogs and killing people. And then at the other end of the rating scale, there's a level one, which is shouldn't air snap with no contact, really straightforward. Okay, we could probably work with this dog, it's not inherently dangerous, maybe it's 20 Level One Bites. And so it's just snapping at people, it's exhibiting really great inhibition, very clear cut, probably a good chance for adoption prospecting, because it's not doing any damage, just just when it hits those gray areas, levels three and four, biting sort of in the middle of the scale I've seen where some some organizations where that's their sole criteria for determining if the dog is gonna be adopted or not. And that is also terribly unfair, because it doesn't assess all the other factors. And here's the kicker is that you could ask, I can get 100 behavior professionals and show them pictures of a level three and level four bites, you know, you'll you'll get different responses. But sometimes Apple say that's a level three, and the other half will say that's a level four, injury. And that could be the differentiator between adoption prospects. Level four, we don't adopt that level three, we adopt out and are potentially adopt that, depending on the other circumstances, but again, terribly unfair. So the other factors to look for are things like provocation. So if I have a dog that I'm reaching into its food bowl, and it bites me, that's a high level of provocation. Now, if I have a dog that is laying down in its front yard, and that's somebody's walking by across the street, that dog gets up charges across the street latches on to that person or bites that person. There's no provocation there. Right. So it's, there's, that's a considerable factor, because sometimes it depends on what that person is doing or what the victim was doing in that case, then you have to look at so many other things like as was an underlying health issue that was caused as a dog in pain? Or does did a very reasonably because the dog was a pain is there's something that's very obvious why the dog? Is there a wide range of antecedents, so is it a dog biting men, women, children, other dogs, kids on bikes and things like that, that's a more difficult case, then the dog bites when people reach into its food bowl. So you know, the range of antecedent support, then you can look at other things like the potential for risk. So if you've got 150 pound Connie Corso, kind of level two or level three fighter that's going to carry a little bit more risk than let's say, a Pomeranian at a level, same level of biting. So you look at that factor. So then you look at the environment, can the person adopting the dog? Or where's the dog going to manage the environment? Well, are they going to be able to work on a shoe and keep people safe? or manage that particular issue? So there's so many, there's just so many variables to like, assess, and look at why it's important to kind of look at that view. And that's why I recommend, whenever I get that call, a lot people will say, you know, Mike, can you come assess this dog? Or can we hire you to assess this? Don't we want to know, if it's it, I'll say, well, I could come the shelter and look at the dog. But that's not gonna give me much information, what's gonna give me more information, if I can talk to the shelter staff that interact with the dog, previous adopters, anybody who's interacting with dog, previous owners that may have information about any kind of aggression, then I'm going to be able to have a much more robust picture that's gonna allow me, you know, it's gonna give me data on saying, okay, yes, this is a potential because we looked at all those variables, the bite level, the provocation, the potential management, age of the dog, the breed of the dog, the size of the dog, all those things that we can measure. Now, you're going to be able to have a much more educated and objective decision making process. So lots of variables. I hope I kind of covered that the best I could.
Emily 14:34
So for someone bringing home a new dog that had no sign of aggression in the shelter and came home with like a good behavior report, what would you recommend for them in order to set them up for success and try to avoid some pitfalls? You talked about reaching into the food bowl? What would be other things that you would recommend?
Michael 14:53
Yeah, I think the number one thing, anybody who's getting a dog, whether it's an a foster or a a In the option or any context of getting a dog is to learn how to read body language to learn how to communicate with the dog, because that's going to tell you what the dog's feeling it's going to tell you if the dogs uncomfortable with a particular situation, because you can have 1000 point checklist of all the things you should do to avoid dog aggression, or to prevent it. And yes, there's some useful things that we could put, which we can discuss in a minute. But body language that's going to tell you a lot about how the dog is feeling. And if we can start to recognize those subtle signals, then we know okay, oh, this dogs may be uncomfortable with me going into football, or something more quirky, like, you know, walking over to the kitchen sink, because the dogs had a negative interaction with somebody else spraying the spray or something weird like that. And so I can't say to every adopter, don't go into your kitchen sink. But I can't say if you happen to notice your dog licking or yawning are running away when you approach that kitchen sink, that's telling you something. So that's something you're going to know for that individual dog, it could be a problem. So we'll work on that. Let's let's listen to the dog dogs telling you loud and clear what it's uncomfortable with. So, by far, you know, just learning to read the dogs. Is this goes such a long way.
Emily 16:15
Wow, that's awesome. I wish more shelters and rescues had body language education as part of their adoption process.
Michael 16:23
Yes, yeah. It, it would be very, very helpful. But in the right information to unfortunately sometimes. Yeah, you know, information about what the dog is doing is can be a little bit misguided in terms of, you know, some of the signals. But yeah,
Emily 16:38
we've been recommending the Lily Chin doggy language book, to all our listeners. Yes.
Michael 16:44
Yes, Lily stuff is great.
Libby 16:46
I also just have to give a plug because I'm going through, right, I'm going through my fear free certification right now. And their program is incredible. If you're a trainer or a shelter or a rescue, like, their resources are incredible. So
Michael 17:01
second, second, shout out to them, Marty and Marty and Mikel Becker. Good friends and colleagues, they put out some amazing stuff and the rest of the fair free team as well. So kudos to them for really helping to educate the masses.
Libby 17:15
Those are some really good starting points. Understanding body language is kind of the most important thing to prevent aggression. When you bring a dog into your home. What are some common ways that we create dog aggression? We were really looking forward to talking to you about this after we saw a little infographic you posted. So we'd love to go over these.
Michael 17:37
Yeah. So you know, I think from my foster shelter, kind of rescue perspective, you know, one of the things that sort of in the broader perspective is making sure we've given the dog enough time to acclimate to the environment, and then touch on some of those points. So if you get a dog, for instance, and we're, we're really motivated to get that dog adopting or fostering it, we're in a shelter or rescue situation. Sometimes we're overzealous, so we try to push things quickly. So let's say we get a dog that's somewhat showing some signs of shyness or fearfulness around other dogs or something. And in the name of socialization, I'm putting big air quotes up there, socialization, we try to socialize them to help them and they're new to the foster home or their organization or something like that, that's stressful enough as well. Any kind of change in environment can be stressful for anybody, any dog or human right. And so, you know, so I sometimes see let's go to the dog park, we'll put you in the middle of a dog park with a bunch of other dogs running around. Sometimes you get away with it, but a lot of times that can backfire, because it's just too overwhelming. For the dog, I use the analogy of the bar, you know, it's like picking a dog to a nightclub or to a bar. And sometimes the dog will have a good time. But other times, bad things can happen. And those dog parks, you know, so far fights and unwelcome advances and humping. And, you know, diseases and stuff, there's bad things that can happen dog barks. So just like a nightclub or a bar, so we got to be careful about those. So I never recommend taking a shy or fearful dog to a dog park or something like that. Another one is, you know, social again, in the attempt to socialize the dog, we bring the dog up to things, whether it's a person or another dog, or garbage can or wherever it is on leash. And we're kind of pulling the dog away to coax them to try to get them air quotes used to that particular thing, which is kind of forcing the dog into a situation they don't want but then they get trapped there because the leash is restricted. So we're holding the leash a little tighter. And again, the dogs maybe not barking, lunging, or showing them to avoid sounds of aggression. So we're like, okay, maybe they'll get used to it. The book just socialization, but when, at the same time we might be what's called flooding that dog it's putting them in an overwhelming situation and now they can't get away with it. If you do that enough times, some dogs will resort to aggression, because that's what ends up working with them. Because we've we've removed their flight option artificially by using the leash, or restricting their flight option, and what are you left with? One of the other apps can be the fight option, which they decide, okay, I guess the only way for me to get away from this dog is to use my teeth are some other aggressive behavior, that usually works, because someone's going to pull me away. Next thing, you know, we've reinforced that behavior, we've actually caused an aggressive response, which the dogs can use, again, in the future, to get itself out of a scary situation. So that's another one. The other other common ones are the, the whole, I forgot what was on my list for that thing. But one of the ones that's right at the top of my mind that I've seen happen, and actually got great videos of this in so many ways, that's the beauty of social media, you see tons of this happening.
Maybe not in a good way, but it's, it's, you know, hand feeding. So people will use their hands to 10 feet a tree to dog. And they attempt to get them used to that person. So let's say you have that shy or fearful Foster, and we get our friends over or something, and help us try to get this dog used to people. We give them treats, just give him some treats, then he'll like you, and maybe it'll get over. But again, it works for some dogs. But with some dogs, we are drawing them past their critical distance where they see that food, it's like ooh, cookie, or hot dog or whatever. The they go over to that, yeah, they go over to the skip the treats. And they they that draws them into this critical disk pass what's called the critical distance, it's the distance at which they feel threatened. And because, you know, it's just it's, it's enticing to the dog to see that treat, and then they get stuck there and they look up and they're like bellboy in trouble here. And then they end up resorting to aggression to get themselves out of that space. Let's The analogy I use all the times pile of $100 bills in one hand, and I've got a gun to the other, come get the come get the bundle of $100 bills, like Google money, but then I've got a gun pointed at you. On the other hand, you're going to be very conflicted about that. So so it's always better. If you're gonna do that, if the dog is not rolling over threshold, barking lunge or growling. And the person can be in the vicinity, they can toss treats to the dog efforts, toss the treats slightly behind the dog, and helps the dog increase distance without having to figure out how to do it on its own. If they're interested, they'll come back this toss the treat again. And over time, you'll see that body language that's your barometer to measure how the dogs feeling, you'll see that body language start to change to where they might be more receptive to when and feeding is okay for them. But the way to tell is body language.
Emily 22:39
I love that you had a post on social media over the weekend with a dog that was barking and lunging, and you just threw food. And you know, a lot of people would feel like Why were you throwing food at a dog that was barking and lunging. But it's to change the way they feel. And you were throwing it behind so they got that relief of pressure.
Michael 22:59
Yes, yeah, the one of the biggest misconception is that giving food or comforting a dog that's fearful, will reinforce the fear. But that's the issue is that it's an emotional response, we cannot reinforce emotional responses, the same way we can reinforce behavior. So I give a cookie to a dog that sits or jumps up on me, they're going to remember, okay, I got a cookie for sitting or jumping up on the person. That's why a lot of dogs do start getting worse, because people are petting them as they're jumping up. That's behavior that we can end up reinforcing. But it's not driven by fear, barking and lunging at somebody coming in the yard. That motivation is driven by fear that underlying emotional response, you can't reinforce that you can't reinforce the fear issue. So it's the same as people that if you're afraid of something that said, it's okay, or I gave you some money, or I did anything that's going to comfort you, it's not going to make you more fearful of that particular situation. So if you address the fear, then you address the behavior because if the dog changes from I'm scared of this person to who kind of like this person, because they're giving me treats and they're not doing anything threatening to me, you'll see the fear go away. And then the reason for the behavior goes away. So barking and lunging knowingly no longer needs to happen because the dogs actually okay with the person now so the barking logic goes away. And now it's much more affiliative happy approaching. And that's why it's okay to toss treats a dog like that. The one caveat is this small, small percentage of dogs that are somewhat having a good time doing that behavior. And those are breed specific behaviors like like a livestock Guardian dog, potentially protecting the property. Yeah, that's the difference. Yes, we might inadvertently reinforce that behavior because it's not driven by fear, or some underlying underlying emotional response like that. So there's a distinction. I always like to mention that because I don't want people also reinforcing like the German shepherd for like barking, lunging at some ants approaching them lets you know that they feel as a threat to their owner. They're just doing what a good German shepherd would do. So it's a different approach. They're those we're going to work more on teaching the dog what to do instead. But vast majority of the time, toxic treats that a dog that's that's barking, out of fear is not going to to hurt anything, it's only going to make things better in most cases.
Libby 25:23
I'm so glad you brought that up, because that was going to be my next question, because I have an Australian cattle dog. So if she's barking and lunging at a bike, it's not because she's afraid of it. She's just super excited. There's something fast moving in her environment. So yeah, like you said that, in those cases, you teach the dog what to do instead, like a replacement behavior?
Michael 25:47
Yeah, yeah. And that's the important distinction. Sometimes we need a professional step in to help the client to assess really what's going on. And sometimes there's a mixture, sometimes a dog could be a little bit fearful, but also displaying breed specific behaviors. So that's why it's important to to work with a professional that can help create the appropriate behavior plan. But yes, there are some dogs that they're going to do things that that particular breed does, the Border Collie chasing the children around in the backyard would reasonably say that's pretty normal for that particular breed.
Emily 26:20
And back to that graphic, the infographic about ways to create aggression, you would not recommend punishing a dog that was barking, and lunging at a stranger visiting the house.
Michael 26:32
Exactly. So any any aggression, aggressive response that's motivated by those those things, fear, anxiety, stress, frustration, those, if we start to add in punishers, or something that is, the dog doesn't like, what we're doing is just adding a negative to a negative situation. The example I use a lot is the, like an invisible fence. Right. So it works by punishments in the behavioral sense. So most clean behavioral terms, it's a positive punishment dog runs the fence line, and gets either the beat or the actual shock from the Invisible Fence collar. And, and, and that's the thing about Invisible Fence collars, they work beautifully, because there's really no human intervention, it's it's, the timing is actually really great. That's why they work so well. In so many cases, it's just the association that we can, unfortunately, that comes along for the ride. So let's say the mailman comes by every day, the dogs typically fine with everybody excited to see the mailman goes charging to the fence line to go say hello. And then they get the beep, beep, when condition to shock, by the way, will have the same punishing characteristics as the actual shock, because it's so classically conditioned to it. But the rest of the Fenceline gets the people the shock next, you know. So it's like, Oh, that wasn't so great. So, okay, all right. So man goes away, the mailman comes again, the next day, same thing, the dog runs through the fence line and get that beep in that for that shock. So then the dog starts this, potentially carry this association, wait a second, every time this, I should use the appropriate term postal employee comes by and they are they show up, I might get shocked. So there's that negative association being created. And enough times doing that, pretty soon that I was like, You know what, I've had enough of this postal carrier, I'm going to let them know next time. And then sometimes they break through that fence line to go and actually use aggression to make that postal carrier go away. So punishing punishment. And that's a very clean example like that, that is a spot as clean as you can get. It can get even muddy or sometimes if the punishment is not always consistent, so that the definition of that is anxiety, creating anxiety and dog, not knowing when the next ball is going to drop. That is the definition side. It's not sure what's the outcome of what's going to happen next that can create further issues. So you can see where there's a lot of issues with punishment. And I will be fair, it's not that happens in every case. You know, there's plenty of times that punishment does work, but we run the risk of the potential side effects so so when there's other methods that we can use that don't carry the same side effects, why not start with those first and incorporate those?
Emily 29:28
Oh my god, I love that. I love that so much. You know, there's so many rescuers and shelters out there that do still like slap prawn collars on their dogs. And you see it on on social media all the time. And I think they just don't know. I mean, they're all in the business because they love dogs and they want to do the best by dogs. And so I think this conversation is so important. I didn't know this a decade ago. So you know, the more we can get this information out to all these dog loving people that if you really want to set your dog up for success, it's best to start with positive means,
Michael 30:03
yes, yeah, it's, again, because it's not, you know, I'm not the type that just comes out attacking anybody's tools or anything like that, because they, they they work, they, you know, I used to use those tools, I have what they call as it is known as a crossover trainer. So I understand the use of those tools and how they work. So it's not that they don't work, it's just that they, for me carry a higher risk of potential side effects, or what they would call Fallout than if you were to go with a positive reinforcement strategy. So why not start with the positive reinforcement, try to think that has the least amount of potential side effects. So that's, it's gone, it's very straightforward for me at this point in my life, why would approach using positive methods?
Emily 30:47
I totally agree with that. And also rescue dog shelter dogs, they're in such a, you know, stressed out state just from the upheaval in their lives, that you're already stacking the deck against them.
Michael 30:59
Yeah, one of the things I hear a lot is we don't you don't, we don't have time, or we don't have the resources, or this is a last resort. So, you know, using an E collar or something would be appropriate for this case. And, you know, I understand that I understand that, again, coming from a rescue background, that there are limited resources, sometimes there is limited time. But there's always that option, there's always other options that we can do for that dog. And most of the time, when we're reaching for those quick fix strategies, you're going to see some fallout because of what you just mentioned, there, Emily is that the, they're already in a stressful situation, their environment is changed, they're being shifted around, we've got some, you know, people trying to help the dog. And so we start using something we might look at as a quick fix. That's going to look good on paper. Because you can take an aversive tool, I can take an E collar, I can stop a behavior, I can suppress a behavior, that's gonna look really good, right? It's gonna be like, Wow, it's almost like made for TV like, okay, yeah, the dog now stopped barking. Sure I get, I get a dog's almost stopped doing anything using an aversive enough stimulus. Looks good on paper. But what happens when that dog goes to the new home, or the adopter home, were suppressed the behavior great, it's good, but doesn't mean we've changed the underlying reason for that behavior in the first place. If we don't address the underlying reason, whether it's pain, fear, anxiety, stress, you don't address the behavior. So once that new owners either stopped using the caller doesn't know how to use it. Next, you know, the aggression comes roaring back, often much worse, because we suppress some of the signals we want to keep in the first place. And so I think it's a two part issues that, yes, we need to work with what resources we have. But also, it's an educational issue, we have to educate that sometimes the positive methods are the most appropriate, but also can be faster than some of these quick fixes. Because what's going to happen is, when done, right, you can still enact those behavior change, but we're going to change the underlying reasons. So the fear and anxiety stress, but most importantly, for these dogs and shelter and rescue, we're adding in positives, we're, we're negating the stress and the frustration and things that can happen in those environmental changes, by using positive methods, because the dog stays gonna be great if all of his good things happening tree topping training, and all of this enrichment and good things happening, you are addressing the root cause of the problem there by doing that. So I argue that positive training is actually a faster fix than aversive methods, even though adverse events can look good on paper at first. So
Libby 33:49
that's, that's just I love that point so much, you're not just dealing with an unwanted behavior, you're also adding enrichment to the dog's life that is going to help relieve the stress that is contributing to those unwanted behaviors.
Michael 34:05
Absolutely, I mean, if you look at just how much stress can play a role, if you look at like some of the studies that have been done on just like resource guarding, for instance, the prevalence and resource guarding if you do nothing, nothing except just take the dog from the shelter environments, and you put them into a home environment, the resource guarding behaviors decrease the frequency, that's with zero training, no training, no intervention, or just to change an environment. So you can see how much stress can play a role in some behaviors, especially aggressive responses.
Emily 34:36
That's amazing. So similar to it so similar to us. I mean, when we're stressed out at the end of the day, you know, we're more likely to snap at our partner. If we've had a really stressful day or you know, we're in the middle of some big test or project, but if we're sitting on the beach, then we're pretty relaxed, like hey, yeah, sure. I'm totally excited to have a conversation with you now, but yeah, so I I think we do Just need to understand that their responses are so similar to ours when they're under stress.
Michael 35:05
Yeah. And here's here's my shout out to all the Fosters anybody in the rescue world hears that you're you're doing behavior change strategy, whether you like it or not, you get that dog out of a stressful environment, you bring them to home. And you if you do nothing, if you just sit there and watch the dog do nothing, you're already doing a service for that dog. They're in a home environment in a much less stressful situation. So there's, there's really no urgency or training pressure that needs to happen in that first couple of weeks even just let the dog settle in, let them say, this place is pretty cool. No pressure on me, it's so much less stressful. And I'm sure many of the force was giving a lot of extra stuff treats and soft dog beds and all of that stuff. But there's no need for a lot of training pressure in most cases. In terms of that regard. Of course, you know, little things like house training issues are not choosing your furniture. But you know, there's no need to put all of the significant pressure on the dogs.
Emily 36:02
Oh, my God, I love that so much the value of doing nothing, just letting them come in and decompress. Exactly. We had a great episode with Dr. McConnell about decompression. Yeah, yeah. And yeah, I mean, it really is just let them come in. Don't put any pressure on them. And let them relax.
Michael 36:19
Yes, yeah. Anything Dr. McConnell says is, it's worth gold, because it's, it's so true. You know, no one knows. Much better than ours. So
Libby 36:30
you briefly mentioned resource guarding? Can you talk about how we inadvertently create resource guarding when we're trying to help our dogs?
Michael 36:39
Yeah, so if if anything can be taken away from this episode, and spread out to the masses, is just stop trying to do all these things to get the dog use to it, right. So that if, if we just left dogs alone, while they're eating or have a toy, or bone or something that they would normally guard, you don't, you won't create the issue in the first place. And sometimes even if the dog has a pre existing resource guarding issue, let's say they have a history of biting the assessor hat or something like that, which I again, don't recommend poking at dogs when they're eating in any facet, we don't need to do that. Just leave them alone while they're eating. And if you do that the dogs are they caught my last home, people were poking prior to me messing around me my food business home, nobody's messing with me. So I can trust these people. So there's no need to guard. So you don't even treat the issue sometimes and it goes away. So one of the worst things we can do. And I see this advice all the time is to do things in the name of getting the doggies to stick your hand in the food ball while they're eating. pet them while they're eating, pick up the food ball and put it down. So they know you own the food or, you know, you do all these these really, that the reasoning behind these things is so it's maddening when you think about it, because all we're doing is aggravating the crap out of our dogs by doing that, right. So it's, it's, if you have an existing issue, there's ways to treat it right? We can we can work on dogs that do have resource guarding issues. But a lot of times we don't have to do anything. And a lot of times, we don't have to do much to avoid resources, that you can teach it by irritating the dog while they're eating. Or if they have a bone, or for not recognizing that it's this particular thing, the dog likes it. So let's not try to take it away. We can do things so that they voluntarily start to trade or give you things or if we want to have preventative maintenance. Or if you have small children in the home, things like that there's, there's things we can do to ensure things don't become a problem, or treat things if there is a crowd. But first and foremost, let's leave them alone, while they have a resource. And that's the that's the best thing to do for dogs to avoid this really epic problem with resource guarding issues that I'm seeing. It's just it's getting much worse, unfortunately, seeing that all of my students, trainers and teachers seeing that higher prevalence, the resource guarding issues, especially after pandemic times. Among other things that are we're seeing, of course, issues with separation, anxiety issues, and all those other things from the pandemic. So, yeah, hopefully, hopefully, people start to not worry so much about, you know, training their dog to get used to things, let's just leave them alone, rather, eating or having resource. Give them a safe space to do that.
Emily 39:23
So we've been chatting for 45 minutes, and I realized that we haven't covered one big concept, which is dominance. You haven't mentioned that once. And I feel like that is a myth that we should chat about before we let you go.
Michael 39:40
Yeah, yeah. So the big D word. Yeah, that's the sole controversial like it, especially in dog training circles. So, you know, dominance is a thing. It's an ecological concept that pretty much to sum it down into one line is priority access to a resource so animals do use dominance with each other. That being said, that's all it is. It's not some hierarchy where you have to be alpha, that whole Alpha construct has been completely debunked many, many times. So we don't need to really use that word dominance anymore, we don't need to apply it because it's the problem with labels in constructs is that they get applied massively at a mass scale. So now everything's related to dominance. And that's what happened in in dog training behavior world in the 90s. And the 2000s, early 2000s. So all this everything's dominance, and always being dominant, so we have to be more dominant. And that creates so many issues for so many dogs, like, oh, no, the dogs, you know, laying on the couch there. So now I can't let that happen. Dogs being dominant, or sleeping on my bed, dogs gonna dominate the world that they're sleeping on a bed. It's such, it's such nonsense when you think about it, in the grand scheme of things. So yeah, it's a, it's a construct, I hope that goes away, I think it's, it's a useful term for a very small subset of people that really understand what dance is and talking about it from an ecological concept. But there's, there's really no need to apply it, let's just look at behavior. Let's look at what the dog is doing and stop worrying about it. The dogs being dominance, or alpha stubborn, or just, you know, whatever else people want to call it, we look at what the behavior actually is, that's all we need to know, let's say what's what do we want our dogs to do instead, rather than saying, Oh, I've got to be more dominant. It's, it's just, and that's not to go off on a tangent. But the, that's like, when you think about it's like, when we're treating behavior issues, you know, the a lot of schools of thought, let's, let's treat everything but the actual behavior itself. So dogs need more exercise, the dogs need more walks, structured walks, or pack walks, or the dogs need you to be more dominant. And then they will stop snapping at me when I pet them on their rear end or their hip or something. And that whole behavior is motivated, let's say let's we use that, for example. The dog is growling at people when they cut its leg or tip, dogs being dominance. And that's what it's attributed to. So now you got to punish the dog, or B, put the dog in its place, or some alpha, roll the dog or do all these awful things, when hasn't been recognized that whole reason for the behavior, the dogs in pain, don't have hip dysplasia or torn ACL. But the dogs being dominant. And so nobody ever treats the torn ACL or attributed to dominance. And it's just this vicious cycle, oh, my gosh, he grew up not gonna take him by the neck and pin him down or withhold his meals or kick him off the bed or all of these things that are not actually addressing the actual behavior. So rather than saying, Okay, I've got to be the trigger for this behavior is when I go reach to pet him. And the reason for the behaviors because he's in pain. And so we never actually go to addressing Okay, let's, first of all address the pain issue. And let's teach the dog that it's okay when people pet because it's going to predict something good for the dog is going to happen. So, yeah, I hope that it continues. You know, I've seen some wonderful changes in the behavior world where people are starting to recognize it's actually a treat the behavior treat, like recognize why the dogs doing these things in the first place. And making sure that the true reasons for why the dog is doing in the first place without attributing to some sort of a hierarchy or dominance concept.
Emily 43:21
And I've one other question along that line of, you know, that positive reinforcement works for all breeds the concept of some breeds need a heavier hand, and you can throw treats at a Pomeranian but if you're dealing with a Connie Corso, then you need a heavier hand, and I've noticed that you work with all breeds, in the same way.
Michael 43:42
Yeah, yeah, that's another misconception too, I think. You know, I think part of it is like this, sort of just trying to be like, I don't know the word, I'm looking for it. But there's like this macho ism to it, like when you see a lot of, I see that comment a lot from male trainers as well, where they, it's like, you got to have a heavy hand, it's like, almost like, I gotta be like, one off and cool. It's stronger than the dog. But it's, you know, it's such a again, another misconception because if I carried that same concept over into, let's just, let's not talk about dogs, it's talking about other species. You know, it's, that's that Take That tuna that wants to have a heavy hand, but let's put them in a zoo with, you know, 600 pound gorilla or a lion. And let's see how heavy handed they can be with those animals, where they're using strictly positive reinforcement, to get the animal to come up and, you know, stick a leg out of a cage for a blood draw, right to all train through positive reinforcement, you think I'm gonna throw a collar on that dog of that line and just drag it over the cage, you know? So, it's the same with dogs, you know, it doesn't matter the size of the dog. We've got to just use our good training skills with positive reinforcement and cooperative, be cooperative with the dog. So I rather actually be cooperative with a dog that could waste you know, 50 pounds more than me in some cases, and could easily do much more damage, I would much rather have a cooperative conversation with that dog than a forceful one. So why risk? It's got it kind of when you think about it makes really this like, it's odd argument, okay, I'm gonna be more heavy handed with the dogs that could literally bite my arm off versus the little tiny Chihuahua that I'm going to be, you know, less heavy handed with but can't bite my face off. So, yeah, yeah, we got to see that mythical way to dogs, dogs, whether it's a, you know, five pound dog or 150 pound dog is the treatment plants got the same, but, of course, the subtle differences in how high you give the treat, you know, the little differences in equipment, but that that's that that
Libby 45:50
is there before we let you go, is there anything else you think the rescue and shelter community needs to know about aggression in dogs that we didn't cover?
Michael 45:59
Know where to look for help. So I know that rescues sometimes have depending especially on where they are located might have limited resources. But the nice thing about the whole pandemic is that people have learned to learn and to teach online. So the resources are out there for really getting the best help for the dogs in your program that might have aggression issues, because that's where it starts. Because, unfortunately, the wild west with dog training and behavior, and you might end up with something that can make dogs much worse if you're not careful. So nowhere to look, there's great resources out there, like your podcasts, but also, you know, IWC, so I abc.org for good behavior consultants and CCPD T. There's, there's, of course, the veterinary behaviors. So da CVB. There's lots of great resources out there, too, that are science based, that give give give really good information. That's not based in some sort of folklore and myth myths that we want to avoid. So nowhere to look, but those know that those resources out there and know that you're not alone, the rescue world, as being from there can be a bit lonely or feel a little bit. You know, just like any other dog training, conversation can have their own conversations that feel a little bit icky or competitive sometimes, but I know that you're not alone in the rest of it. There's there's help out there. And there's people willing to help with training and behavior. So we're there for you.
Libby 47:33
Awesome, and where can people find you online?
Michael 47:36
Yeah, so everything I do is through aggressivedog.com. I've got, actually, depending on when this episode airs, but I've got a complete website revamp happening right now, where I'm including a lot more resources for people that are in the pet owner, just pet owners, rescues veterinarians. So it's going to that's going to have a full area for articles and videos. I've got a lot of other professionals, a lot of my students writing articles and producing video content for me now. So as a general resources, I really want it to be the go to resource for people having issues with aggression, whether it's a rescue shelter or a pet owner. So that's going to be launched that's through aggressive dog.com. And it's got all the information. I've got courses, webinars, conference information, their podcast information there. And they can they can find me that by the end of the dog podcasts that's available. couple seasons in now. So so that's where I am. Yeah.
Emily 48:34
Well, this was wonderful. It's such an honor to have you on our podcast.
Libby 48:37
Yeah. Thank you so much. I learned a ton and I know our listeners will too.
Michael 48:41
My pleasure. Thanks for having me.
Libby 48:46
Thanks for tuning in. If you liked this episode, don't forget to rate and review. It helps other folks like you find the show. To find out more about our programming and adoptable rescue dogs, you can visit summit dog rescue.org thanks to Mike pesci for the original music and to Alex Lee Ammons and for the love media for graphics production and editing. See you soon on pod to the rescue.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai